MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



67 



27 Augutt, 1919.] 



MR. J. SADLER. 



[Continued. 



7091. And the farmers, as a matter of fact, in 

 pre-war times were studying their financial interests 

 in developing the dairy business? -Yes. 



7092. They would have continued to develop that 

 business as their best financial interest during the 

 war, had it not been for the action of the Executive 

 Committee? I would not say that; I do not think 

 I should say that. 



7093. Then you think that Cheshire farmers, on 

 the whole, are .willing to grow more cereal crops, even 

 though it may not be to their financial interest? 

 They are growing more cereal crops, and have been 

 for the last two years. Their one anxiety now is to 

 know whether the continuing of growing those crops 

 is going to be to their financial benefit or not. If 

 not, they will be compelled to go back to their grass 

 farming. 



7094. Are you sure about that? Is there not an 

 alternative where you have a highly developed dairy 

 system, as you have in Cheshire, by which you have, 

 as a matter of fact, from pre-war times been growing 

 a considerable^ acreage of crops for consumption by 

 the cows? Yes. 



7095. Are you sure, if the guarantees under the 

 Corn Production Act arc not raised or are withdraw n. 

 that the farmers of Cheshire will let that land revert 

 to. grass rather than to maintain it in arable culti- 

 vation for the production of food for their cows? 

 The growing of arable crops for the uee of cattle is 

 no doubt a sound business proposition, and I say 

 quite frankly I have thought for a long time that the 

 best method of carrying on a dairy farm where the 

 land is suitable is by increasing the arable and reduc- 

 ing the pasture for purely dairy purposes. 1 

 agree with you, therefore, that there would not be 

 that wholesale reversion to grass. 



7090. There would not be necessarily a reversion 

 to grass? No, not on a wholesale scale. 



7( (97. Mr. Duncan: I think you said you were in 

 favour of retaining the fixed price for milk. Will 

 you tell us the reason why you are in favour of that? 

 I have very distinct recollections of the terrific con- 

 flicts we used to have periodically with the traders 

 in milk, and I am not sure whether it would not be 

 simpler, after due enquiry as to costings, for the 

 price of milk to be fixed by a well constituted Board 

 to obviate that constant scrimmage between the pro- 

 ducers and the purchasers of milk. Sometimes one 

 side gets the better of the other, according to the 

 state of the market, and sometimes the other side 



7098. Your fear is that if the fixed price is with- 

 drawn the want of organisation in the industry and 

 the competition amongst the producers may bring 

 down the price to a figure at which it will not be 

 remunerative? Not in the immediate future, but 

 in years to come. 



7099. Do you think it is not possible for the farmers 

 themselves to create the amount of organisation neces- 

 sary to prevent this cutting of price? I think they 

 have made a start in that direction already by estab- 

 lishing tho co-operative societies. In that way they 

 become the marketers of their own produce and supply 

 the market with what milk is required as milk and 

 the rest they manufacture into cheese. 



7100. You do not think that will .be sufficient in 

 itself? If it was widely enough developed I think 

 perhaps it would be sufficient. 



7101. Do you .think there is any reason for having 

 the interests of the consumer consulted in the matter 

 of tho fixing of price? Do you think that is a matter 

 which ought not to be entirely in the hands of the 

 producer? Quite. 



7102. Was there any difficulty in securing labour on 

 the dairy farms in Cheshire before the war? No, I do 

 not know that there was any serious difficulty. 



7103. These are all difficulties which have arisen 

 recently? There was always a general sort of diffi- 

 culty because of the competing industries, which at 

 that time could always afford to pay a good deal more 

 money to the man and give him his week end off than 

 the farmer could possibly afford to pay. 



7104. Do you think that the prVsont difficulty is due 

 to thn complete upsetting ef -.1) our affairs through 

 the war conditions or is it a growing feeling amongst 



the workers themselves on the farmi that they ought 

 to have conditions approximating to tne oOudiiuwurf 

 which obtain in other industries? I think it is very 

 largely due to the upset through the war. 



7106. Was there no movement prior to the war for 

 shorter hours and more leisure in Cheshire? Nothing 

 very definite. 



7106. I seem to remember that there was a good deal 

 of agitation in Cheshire prior to the outbreak of 

 war that the workers had an organisation of their 

 own in that county which afterwards became a part 

 of the Workers' Union? I do not think there was 

 anything that was worth mentioning. My recollection 

 does not serve me at all in calling it to mind. 



7107. These hours that are now fixed are not hours 

 fixed by Statute. There has been no interference with 

 your working hours by any statutory body ? They are 

 minimum hours fixed by the Wages Board but what 

 does that involve? I beg your pardon, for asking a 

 question again. 



7108. The only hours fixed are hours upon which 

 the minimum rate is to be calculated. There is no 

 statutory limitation of the number of hours that may 

 be worked by any workman or the hours which any 

 employer may work his workmen? So that really the 

 argument in favour of longer hours in order to secure 

 the men at their employment during what we may 

 call the necessary operations, in view of what you say, 

 rather falls to the ground ? 



7109. My point is this, that the farmers and the 

 workmen in a district are quite free to fix any hours 

 that they please. All the Wages Board does is to say 

 that if a certain number of hours are worked a cer- 

 tain rate of wages must be paid, but there is no limi- 

 tation that you must work a six and a half hour day 

 or that you must work less than seven days. You can 

 work the whole of the 24 hours if you please, so far 

 as the law is concerned, provided you pay the mini- 

 mum rate of wages. That is the position, is it not? 

 I am afraid that that has not been thoroughly 

 understood. The pronouncements of the Wages 

 Board have rather given the impression that those 

 were the hours which were to be worked for an 

 ordinary week's work. 



7110. "Surely the farmers of Cheshire are capable 

 of arranging their business on something better than 

 an impression? They can arrange their business if it 

 is left to them to do it. 



7111. It is left to thorn is it not? I am very glad 

 to hear you say so. 



7112. Surely it is amazing if the agricultural in- 

 dustry in Cheshire proceeds to alter its hours without 

 any compulsion being placed upon it under the im- 

 pression that it is compelled to alter the hours. I 

 put it to you that the farmers are still as free to-day 

 as they have been at any period of their lives to fix 

 the number of working hours with their workmen. 



7113. Chairman : That is a statement of fact. 

 Whether the witness agrees to it or not is another 

 matter? I accept it as a statement of fact. 



7114. Mr. Duncan: I wanted to bring that out, 

 that the working hours you have fixed in your district 

 have been fixed between the workmen and the em- 

 ployers and that the demand for the shorter hours 

 has come from the workmen? Yes. 



7115. Has any effort been made to get workers to 

 carry over this period from Saturday afternoon to 

 Sunday? I suppose the main difficulty is to get 

 milkers? Yes. 



7116. If you could get milkers to carry over that 

 period, what you may call the regular work of the 

 farm would not be so difficult to meet? No. 



7117. Have you any system in Cheshire of occasional 

 milkers, that is to say, milkers who are not regularly 

 employed on the farm coming in occasionally to milk? 

 - -No, except in a few instances. 



7118. There is no occasional labour of that kind 

 employed on the farm at all? Very little. 



7119. If I put it to you that practically the whole of 

 the milk industry in Scotland is conducted on that 

 liasis with occasional milkers who come in and do 

 nothing else but milking is there not a possibility 

 of getting some elasticity in that direction in your 

 county by training your milkers who would be avail 

 able for a I urn occasionally to relievo the regular 

 workers? Would not that moot the difficulty of pro- 



E 3 



