MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



97 



3 September, 1919.] 



SIR RICHARD WINFREY, M.P. 



[Continued. 



shire to grow? If you follow this rotation it does. 

 Of course, if you grow the oats after potatoes and 

 they do sometimes grow oats after potatoes instead 

 of after wheat then, of course, those first four items 

 do not come in. Those first four items have to be 

 brought in two years out of the three, you see. 



8105. Is this particular holding surrounded by a 

 fence or a ditch ? Both. The grass land we fenced off. 

 This man has six acres of grass; that is fenced off. 

 They were most of them about 20 acre fields. He 

 would have a third of the field and the others were 

 all ditches and each man has to keep his ditches 

 clear. 



8106. To what crop do you charge what we call the 

 unprofitable labour of cleaning out these ditches, 

 which is a very necessary thing in Lincolnshire, or 

 trimming the fences? If this man had to rely abso- 

 lutely on these three crops it would be different, but 

 you must remember he has his stock and his pigd and 

 his poultry and butter and eggs. I think I may say 

 almost that his wife has paid the rent of this place 

 practically out of the poultry and eggs during the 

 war. 



8107. Yea, but do you not think that something 

 should be charged to the wheat crop for keeping the 

 ditches clean, which must be cleaned every year, and 

 for putting the fences in order. It has to be charged 

 to gome crop or another? What we do with regard to 

 the ditches on this farm, which is a long narrow farm, 

 two miles long, is this: the whole of the ditches 

 are put in order by the Association, and each man 

 is charged his share of the cost per acre whatever 

 it may be. The men do the work ; the Steward goes 

 do n and tells six of them, say, to start the ditching, 

 and he pays them the rate of wages and the total 

 cost is divided amongst them all when the rent is 

 paid. It is not in the cost of these crops certainly. 



8108. It ought to be? It ought to be taken off the 

 whole profit of the whole of it, but this is not the 

 whole profit of the whole of it. 



8109. Yes, but in taking out estimates of this sort 

 you must allocate these charges to the particular 

 crops in proportion? In proportion, yes, but it would 

 be a very small proportion. 



8110. However, it is a proportion? Yes. 



8111. In the grass land laid down for hay in 1919, 

 is there anything for seeds? I said it ought to be one 

 acre of permanent grass laid down for hay : the word 

 " permanent " was omitted. 



8112. I had not got that. Will you now turn to 

 Norfolk ; this is very light land as you and I know ? 

 Yes. 



8113. Is it on the south side of Swaffham this 

 particular side of the holding? No, it is on the 

 Watton road. 



8114. To the south? No, it lies between the Watton 

 road and the Brandon road. 



8115. That is due south? Yes. 



8116. Take your estimate for growing wheat first 

 of all. You 'have put down 10 loads of farmyard 

 manure. That you say ought to be 7? Yes'. 



8117. There is nothing charged for carting that?- 

 No. Of course, this man lives on his holding the 

 land is all round his house so that his carting would 

 be very little. I do not know whether he includes it 

 in the 5s. a load. 



8118. He ha* to put it on to the cart and take it 

 to the field in a cart? Quite. 



8119. So that is an omission. Then with regard 

 to the artificials. Mr. Rea has made the point that 

 even if it should be only one item, 4 cwts. of basic 

 slag or 1 cwt. of sulphate of ammonia, 14s. is in- 

 adequate? This man says 14s., and you say it ought 

 to be 16s.; it is 2s. out.f 



8120. And spreading? Yes. 



8121. Again there is nothing there for thatching? 

 No. I should very much question whether this man 

 ever thatches. 



8122. He has to cover it up with something? As I 

 say, he covers it up with a cloth until such time as 

 he gets the threshing machine into the yard. 



8123. Last year the War Agricultural Committee 

 of Norfolk were searching out the people who did not 

 thatch? They did not catch any of the little men. 



8124. Yes, they caught little men as well as big 



t 8t( Appendix No. IV. 



men? All I can say is none of my smallholders were 

 caught. 



8125. You were lucky. Now turn to the yield : 

 do you think that the average yield on that 

 particular smallholding I know the land well 

 is 4 quarters of wheat to the acre on light land 

 such as that is, taking a cycle of years? We have had 

 this farm since 1900 that is 19 years no, I honestly 

 do not think that during the whole of the 19 years 

 if you struck an average that they have got 4 quarters, 

 but I think this man does, because in my opinion he is 

 one of the best of them. 



8126. Would you be surprised to know that a man to 

 the south of him, whose land may not perhaps be as 

 good land although it is all pretty much on a par, 

 has only got an average yield for the last six years 

 of 21i bushels? There is a lot of land which is over- 

 ridden with game there, and which has only really 

 been scratched over and not farmed at all. The crops 

 are eaten up by the game, and I should like to know 

 what parish it is in before I can answer your question. 

 If it is in South Pickenham, where it is overrun with 

 game, it would of course be a very small crop. 



8127. Now if you will turn to the roots, the charge 

 for ridging is 2s. 6d. No doubt it is double ridging. 

 Have you any idea what a man with a pair of horses 

 can run up and split down in the day? I should think 

 getting on for three acres. 



8128. That is only 7s. 6d. for a pair of horses and 

 a man? They do not use a pair of horses on this land 

 very often. 



8129. Then they would not do three acres? No. 



8130. I put it to you I can very rarely get two acres 

 done, run up and split down? That shows the advan- 

 tage of smallholdings, because this man gets it done 

 cheaper than you do. 



8131. He does not charge his labour, that is all I 

 can say. It is such an absurd figure that it puts 

 your figures completely out of Court. He cannot do 

 it under five times the amount. It proves the fallacy 

 of the whole report? That is your view, not mine. 



8132. You have not had much experience as a prac 

 tical agriculturist? I have had 25 years carefully 

 watching these people. 



8133. With regard to the yield, I should think your 

 estimate of 15 tons of mangolds is about correct? 

 Are there any other items that you dispute? 



8134. No? If it is only the ridging, I dare say 

 you are right about that. 



8135. Now barley. You have charged ploughing 5 

 inches deep at 25s.? Yes. 



8136. If you turn back to the roots again, you 

 charge ploughing 6 inches deep, 1 that is the second 

 year roots? Yes. 



8137. There must be an error there I take it? Yes. 



8138. These must be estimates ? Yes ; that does not 

 work out. 



8139. Then we will come to the workmen's compensa- 

 tion. You charge 2s. Cd. in 1919, the same as you 

 charge in 1913. both in Norfolk and in Lincolnshire. 

 The premiums for workmen's compensation have risen 

 100 per cent, since 1913? These men do not insure; 

 themselves. 



8140. They do not insure themselves under the 

 Workmen's Compensation Act? No. 



8141. You have put down " Workmen's compensa- 

 tion " ? That is just the casual labour they have from 

 time to time. 



8142. The premiums cost considerably more now 

 than they did in 1913? Yes. 



8143. With regard to the yields, do you think that 

 Swaffham land can grow 5 quarters of barley in this 

 very deplorable year that we have had. It is not 

 threshed yet, I take it? No. 



8144. It is only an estimate then? Yes, but it is a 

 very good crop on this land ; it is much above the 

 average. 



8145. I can assure you that the whole of Norfolk 

 will not average 4 quarters this year? Of course, but 

 when you take the whole of Norfolk you take some 

 very pool land with it. 



8146. This is not very valuable land? When Mr. 

 Gooding was giving evidence here ho said the cost of 

 producing barley was 8 17s. 3d., whereas this man's 

 estimate is 12 5s .6d., so if you take the average yield 

 you must take the average cost. I am giving you the 



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