MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



103 



3 September, 1919.] 



SIR BICHARD WINFREY, M.P. 



[Continued. 



8327. They get their eggs and butter and milk and 

 garden produce at cost price the main items of their 

 living expenses and I suggest that the mere state- 

 ment of the figures shows that there must be some- 

 thing wrong in the figures you have put before us? 

 That is not my view. My view is that the figures 

 show that farming is one of the best businesses under 

 the sun. 



8328. Now I adk you generally on the statements 

 you have given us to-day, is it your view from your 

 experience that the farming industry even at the 

 present rate of wages is a profitable industry;' Yes, 

 certainly. 



8329. Is it your view that there is any need of 

 assistance either in the shape of a guarantee of 

 prices or of any other kind to enable the land to 

 remain in cultivation. Before you answer that let 

 me tell you that no other witness has made such a 

 suggestion ? I will tell you what I am going to sug- 

 gest. I was one of the authors of the Corn Produc- 

 tion Act 



8330. Were you on Lord Selborne's Committee? 

 No. Lord Selborne's Committee recommended 42s. 

 as the post war price of wheat. I was at the Board 

 of Agriculture at the time and my name was on the 

 back of the Corn Production Act and I had to justify 

 it in the House of Commons as a free-trader. I 

 justified it of course on the ground of the exigencies 

 of war, and if I had a free hand to-day I should let 

 the Corn Production Act come into full play after 

 this year. 



8331. With a guarantee of 45s. on wheat? Quite. 



8332. What use would that be on your own figures? 

 We should flourish like a green bay tree. I do not 

 fear anything with a guarantee of 45s. 



i. To show the profit you have shown on your 

 wheat growing you have had on your own figures to 

 take the price of wheat at 75s. 6d? I have shown 

 jou that for 25 years we have been growing wheat at 

 a profit. The price never reached 45s. until the war, 

 and yet we have been able to do it successfully. 



8334. I venture to suggest to you that has nothing 

 to do with the matter, because the expense of pro- 

 duction is on a totally different basis now. Wages, 

 for example, have gone up 150 to 200 per cent., and 

 prices of feeding stuffs and other things have gone 

 up 150 and 200 per cent, and even more? Yes, but 

 I maintain that even in those times they could have 

 paid better wages if they had been compelled to 

 do so. 



8335. I am not going back to the past; I want 

 your views as to the future. You have just told me 

 that was the only remedy if you call it a remedy 

 is to go beck to the Corn Production Act as it is 

 and let it come into operation? That is it; that is 

 45s. a quarter next year with the proviso that Part 

 IV should be used which insists upon good cultivation. 

 That is extremely important. 



8336. May I point out to you that if you take your 

 Norfolk smallholder you only show a profit of 1 

 4s. 3d., but that should be increased because he used 

 rather less manure this year. If you only show a 

 profit of that amount on the acre of wheat taking 

 the price at 75s. 6d., what profit could you show if 

 thi' price of wheat were only 45s.? If the costs of 

 production remain as high as they are to-day ; but 

 they will not. 



8337. In your view the cost of production will go 

 down? Yes. 



8338. When do you think that will happen? The 

 moment you start giving 45s. for wheat you will soon 

 find the cost of production will go down. 



19. I do not quite understand what you mean. 

 the price of wheat went down to 45s. in this 

 country because of the world prices and there was 

 only a guarantee to the farmer of 45s., how would 

 that bring down the cost of production? You would 

 find that artificial manures, for example, would at. 

 mi',. K o down in value; people would not give the 

 price for them. 



'*:IO. I am pointing out to you that on your own 

 figures jour wheat onlv loaves a profit of 1 4s. 3d. 

 in a year when ho uses less manure than he ordinarily 

 would do, and taking the price at 75s. 6d. a quarter. 

 If 45s. wag the only price he could get these figures 



would show a loss? Yes, but you must remember 

 what the costs of production were are you taking 

 the Norfolk figures? 



8341. Yes? You must remember the cost of pro- 

 duction in 1913 was half what it was in 1919. 



8342. I am taking the cost of production at the 

 present time. We are only concerned with the future. 

 The question we have to decide is whether any assis- 

 tance should be given to farmers in the public in- 

 terest by way of a guarantee or otherwise to enable 

 wheat to be produced to keep the land in cultiva- 

 tion, and to enable the farmer to pay the present 

 scale of wages and make a profit for himself. If he 

 does not make a profit the farmer will go out of 

 business or the land will be uncultivated? I say speak- 

 ing for the smallholders, they will be quite content 

 with the Corn Production Act a guarantee of 45s. 

 provided it also carries with it an insistence upon 

 good cultivation; that is what we want in this 

 country. 



8343. Will you explain to me how on these figures 

 if the price were to go down to 45s. this small holder 

 could live? If he depended entirely upon wheat he 

 would not be able to do so, but as I have pointed out 

 to you and to other members of the Committee these 

 smallholders do not rely entirely upon wheat. It 

 is not fair to take just one single crop when these 

 men grow all these other crops here of rye, beans, 

 pens, potatoes, and so on. He may make 20 an 

 acre out of his potatoes. 



8344. Wheat is taken as the standard in fixing a 

 guarantee and it is on that basis that wages have to 

 be paid? No, not at all. 



8345. The rate of wages is 7s. a day? The rate of 

 wages in Lincolnshire has been fixed not so much on 

 the price of wheat as on the price of potatoes. 



834G. It has been fixed quite independently of the 

 price of wheat, I quite agree; it is a rate of wages 

 which is necessary to keep the men in efficiency and 

 in reasonable comfort according to his condition of 

 life? It is not the value of the wheat crop that 

 fixes the rate of wages ; it is the value of all the crops. 



8347. Chairman : I think, Sir Richard, if you would 

 not mind, it would be better that you should just 

 answer the questions and not argue? I am sorry. 

 I was rather afraid that when I met Mr. Cautley 

 we should develop into an argument and I made up 

 my mind before I came that I would try not to let 

 that happen. 



8348. Mr. Cautley : I know you have done a great 

 work for these smallholders and I want you to keep 

 them going ? Yes, and I shall keep them going. 



8349. At the same time I must test these figures and 

 I ask you again whether you can explain to me how 

 this particular smallholder would be able to live 

 on these figures if instead of 75s. 6d. a quarter he 

 only received 45s. and the corresponding guarantee 

 in respect of oatsl under the Corn Production Act? 

 My only answer is that the proof of the pudding 

 is in the eating of it, and if you will try it I 

 guarantee that the smallholders I have anything to 

 do wilh- -thrsf 200 men will get a good living out 

 of it. 



8350. Your figures do not show it, you see? Well, 

 there 'it is. 



8351. That is the only answer we can get? Yesl 



8352. .If)'. Lnnyford : You are a great believer in 

 smallholdings? I have been for 30 years. 



8353. A great many questions have been, put to you 

 upon the balance sheets and upon the costs of pro- 

 duction, and so forth? Yes. 



8354. Despite all those questions you still believe 

 that these smallholders that you know in your district 

 have made a great success of their smallholdings? 

 I have absolute proof of that. 



8355. You say that many of them in addition to 

 getting a living out of them have been able to retire? 

 I did not say many. 



8*56. Some of them? I say Several, and others 

 have taken larger holdings. 



8357. And made room for other smallholders? 

 Made room for their sons. 



8358. Wo are more concerned, of course, with the 

 future? Yes. 



8359. Aro you still as hopeful of the future of 

 smallholdings^ I do not mean particularly those that 



