MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



105 



3 September, 1919.] 



SIR RICHARD WINFREY, M.P. 



[Continued. 



for it while they last? A good many of them, I will 

 not say all of them. 



8393. The increase of rent in the case of this 

 particular farm between the years 1908 and 1915 

 amounts to 27s. an acre, or rather over 50 per 

 cent, in 7 years? Yes, and he was prepared to go 

 on paying that, but then the landlord .said, " I 

 must have more rent still this coming year, 1918," 

 and he put the tenant under notice to quit. The 

 tenant said: " What rent do you want." The land- 

 lord said 800 a year, and the tenant said, " I 

 cannot pay it and I will not pay it," and he went 

 out. 



8394. The tenant has actually now vacated the 

 farm in consequence of the continued demand of the 

 landlord for an increased rent? Yes, quite, but 

 mark you it has been let at 800 a year. 



8395. Was it the same landlord the whole of the 

 time? Yes, the same landlord. 



8396. You would not agree with a witness we had 

 before us yesterday who said that rents are not 

 being increased? I do not know of any district in 

 the Eastern counties where rents are not on the rise ; 

 they are on the rise everywhere. 



8397. Would you agree with me that if these prices 

 for farm produce continue the time will soon come 

 when the whole advantage of the increased prices 

 will get into the landlord's pockets? A greater part 

 of it. 



8398. Have you thought of any scheme by which 

 that can be prevented? Land nationalisation. 



8399. I am afraid we are a good way from that? 

 Perhaps we are, but we have got that principle 

 established of course in the land which has been pur- 

 chased by the County Councils as you know. 



8-100. I know and I agree that full security should 

 be given to the tenant, and you would agree with 

 that until we arrive at what you regard as a happy 

 state of affairs, land nationalisation? Quite. 



8401. Do you believe in Rent Courts? Yes. 



8402. Is it your opinion that many of these farmers' 

 rents have been increased upon their own improve- 

 ments: 1 No, not the large farmers do you mean the 

 improvements to buildings, and that sort of thing. . 



8403. No, I mean the improved fertility of the 

 soil? No, I do not think there is a great deal of 

 that ; there are some cases of course. 



8404. Then the increases are due to the increased 

 prices of commodities? Largely; that is the great 

 factor, I think. 



8405. If you had capitalised that holding of 174 

 acres at 4 per cent., it would have been worth less than 

 40 an acre in 1908? That is about the price it 

 remained at in that district; land was selling at 

 about 40 to 50 an acre in that district then ; it is 

 now making 100 to 120. 



8406. Capitalising it at 5 per cent., which is a moder- 

 ate increase, the landlord would get rather more than 

 double for his land in seven years? Many landlords 

 who have sold out lately have doubled their incomes. 

 For example, Mr. Christopher Turner, who is well 

 known in the agricultural world, sold his estate near 

 Lincoln not very long ago and by that means has 

 doubled his income. 



8407. The landlord, without doing anything to in- 

 crease the capital value of the farm during the last 

 seven years, apart from any expenditure in improv- 

 ing the farm, has got an average increase per year 

 far beyond the profits of the farmer, who has de- 

 voted the whole of his time to the cultivation of that 

 land? No, I do not think far beyond; I think the 

 farmer has had a very good time. 



8408. I agree with you dur.ing the war he has? I 

 know he has ; 1 do not think it. 



8409. Apart from the last increase from 420 to 

 660 I work out the increase per annum which would 

 go into the landlord's pocket if he sold on that basis 

 at 3 17s. an acre, and on the 800 it would be 

 considerably more. The increase of rent is an im- 

 portant factor in the cost of production, is it not? 

 Yes. 



8410. In arriving at a price based upon cost of 

 production the food of the general public would neces- 

 sarily be higher in consequence of these large in- 

 creases of rental? Naturally, if rents go up. 



8411. One word as to game. This is the first time 

 we have heard anything about game since the Com- 

 mission has been sitting. Is it your opinion that 

 game on some estates do a vast amount of injury to 

 the farmers' crops? A vast amount. The result is 

 they cannot get the best farmers to come and farm 

 on the game estates at all. 



8412. And the nation suffers in consequence? 

 Exactly. 



8413. Would you agree that the game ought to be- 

 long to the tenant who rents the farm and feeds the 

 game? I would abolish the game laws. 



8414. That would mean that the tenant would have 

 an equal right with the landlord to shoot the game? 

 That is it. 



8415. Mr. Duncan: 1 think you sta-ted in reply to 

 a question that you think the State ought to sub- 

 sidise smallholdings? Do you mean for soldiers? 

 The Land Settlement Act does provide for subsidy, 

 inasmuch as whatever tho land costs the soldiers are 

 only to be charged a fair economic rent. That is a 

 policy I do not agree with. I wanted to take land 

 at pre-war prices. 



8416. But if land is to be taken or smallholdings 

 are to be entered upon at the present time, that is 

 the only way you see of making them successful. If 

 smallholdings are to be entered upon at the present 

 costs, do you think it would be possible for the small- 

 holder to face the costs without some subsidy? No; 

 I do not think the smallholder can pay the present 

 war prices plus the enormous cost of equipment; that 

 is, the house and buildings which are almost prohi- 

 bitive to-day. 



8417. In paragraph 4 you speak of the increased 

 value of agricultural land. Is it your experience in 

 the Eastern Counties that the farmers are competing 

 for farms? For purchasing farms? 



8418. Presumably if a farm is going to be in- 

 creased in rent, the landlord must have some choice 

 of tenants? Yes. The landlord to-day will have no 

 difficulty in getting tenants at increased rents from 

 what he was charging in pre-war days. 



8419. That rather indicates that the farmers them- 

 selves are pretty hopeful of the outlook? I think so. 



8420. Mr. Edwards : First, in regard to Lincoln- 

 shire, you say that most of your tenants are agri- 

 cultural labourers. I should like to know how these 

 men who have had holdings from you compare with 

 a similar class of men who have still remained as 

 agricultural labourers? They are in a better position 

 than the agricultural labourers are to-day, because 

 they not only get a little better income, but they 

 are able to live better altogether out of their holding. 

 They have a higher standard of comfort than the 

 labourers. 



8421. You have here the quantity of stuff or pro- 

 duce grown on your estate of 2,266 acres, or there- 

 aboute. How does that compare with a similar area 

 of similar land in your opinion ? In large farms ? 



8422. Yes, in large farms? My experience is that 

 the smaller holder goes in for rather a greater variety 

 than tho large farmer a greater variety of cropping. 

 He grows more catch crops than an ordinary farmer. 



8423. As to the total produce measured in money, 

 say, at the present moment, which do you think would 

 be producing the largest value of stuff per acre or per 

 100 acres? I think the smallholder would, when you 

 take into consideration all his stock as well butter, 

 milk and eggs. 



8424. And would that be particularly true of small 

 items like poultry and things of that kind? Yes; 

 pigs, poultry, cows, and all they produce. 



8425. Do you think the fact that these men on 

 these holdings have absolute security of tenure at a 

 fixed rent, or a known rent they know the 

 conditions and they know that those conditions 

 are permanent practically has had any influence on 

 their development of the holdings? I think it has a 

 great influence. There is not only fixity of tenure 

 as long as our leases last, but we 'have renewed tho 

 lease on one occasion. It was a 21 years' lease that 

 we took the land on in the first place; then about 

 10 years ago we cancelled the old lease and created 



