MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



107 



3 September, 1919.] 



SIR RICHARD WINFREY -M.P. 



[Continued. 



course it depends upon how long this abnormal con- 

 dition lasts. There are several men I know who 

 made the fee simple out of their land in one year 

 out of potatoes. 



8453. You are aware that the produce of the land 

 has been controlled butter, milk, beef, corn, and 

 everything else has been controlled? Yes, at very 

 remunerative prices. 



8454. In view of that fact, will you admit that 

 the Government also should have controlled the price 

 of land? 



Chairman : That is outside the scope of our present 

 inquiry. We are not allowed to enter into questions 

 of nationalisation. 



8455. Mr. Edwards: Yoa, as a Member of Parlia- 

 ment, I presume, heard the speech of the Primo 

 Minister, in which he said that as a result of the 

 Corn Production Act they were going to fix the price 

 for corn? Not fix it. 



8456. Guarantee it? Yes, guarantee a minimum. 



8457. Two things must follow, he said. The work- 

 ing man must be properly paid, and the rents must 

 not be allowed to rise as they did during the 

 Napoleonic wars. Do you remember those words ? I 

 do not remember that he dealt with it in that way. 



8458. Assume that, he did 



Chairman: I think that is useless, too, because 

 you are cross-examining the witness OP something 

 he is not competent to tell us. 



8459. Mr. Edwards : Then I will put it in another 

 way. I am a tenant farmer and all my stuff has 

 been controlled, of which I am not complaining a 

 bit. Do you think it is fair between class and 

 class to control what I produce out of the land and 

 to leave the land to have the war price? You mean 

 to leave you in a position to have your rent raised? 



8460. No. I am speaking of the selling of land at 

 the present moment, and the effect of it upon the 

 future of farming in this country. The point is that 

 all I produce out of the land is controlled, and 

 the land itself is allowed to be sold in the open 

 market. Is that fair as between the classes that 

 live on the land? There are three classes on the 

 land, as you are well aware. The working man is 

 guaranteed his wages; the landlord is allowed to 

 raise his rent as much as ho likes, and to have the 

 top price of the market the war prices; the tenant 



farmers on the other hand ? Are also getting 



war prices. 



8461. We are not getting open markets? Not ope a 

 markets. 



8462. But the landowner does get the open market, 

 and I want to know from you as a Member of Parlia- 

 ment why the differentiation was made and allowed to 

 continue? 



Chairman : You are not here as a Member of Parlia- 

 ment and you need not answer as a Member of Parlia- 

 ment. 



Mr. Edwards: He is here as Sir Richard Winfrey. 



8463. Chairman: You must say you are not able to 

 answer if you are not able to answer ? I am not able 

 to answer for Parliament, I am afraid. It Is rather a 

 poser. 



8464-5. Mr. Green : I want to get some comparison 

 between the multiple farms and the small ho'dings. 

 Round about Spalding there are a number of multiple 

 farms, are there not? There are, yes. 



8466. Have you made any comparison in your 

 researches between the productive power of these large 

 farms and the small holdings? The majority of our 

 large farmers are very up-txi-date farmers and farm- 

 ing remarkably well, but what they do not go in for 

 is the amount of stock per acre that the little man 

 dors, and all the etceteras like pigs and poultry. 

 \Vlii-n a man is farming five or six farms, he hae a 

 bailiff on five of them probably; and they do not 

 cultivate every corner of their land in the way that 

 a small holder does. 



7. We were told by former witnesses that these 

 farms would be excellent for one reason as offer- 

 ing son'" incentive to the sons of farmers to get posts 

 a managers or sub-managers. We heard from a 

 witness yesterday that the bailiff on 2,700 acres got 

 .'J a week. Tbat wage is less than the Forfarshire 

 ploughman geta. Do you think there wouM he any 



incentive to the sois of farmers to go on large farms 

 if they are only going to get wages of 3 a week 

 as bailiffs and sub-managers? I do not think in 

 Lincolnshire you would find any farm bailiff getting 

 as little as 3 a week. 



8468. This is Northamptonshire? I am sure they 

 are getting more than that. They get their rent 

 free; they are allowed very often to keep a cow, and 

 the foreman's wife gets so much a score for all the 

 eggs ; they get a great deal more than 3 a week. 



8469. I want to get at this labour income on these 

 small holdings. That is a very important point, is 

 it not? It is, yes. 



8470. When I was at Sutton Bridge, Wingland, I 

 found a small holder with 40 acres with 10 daughters. 

 I suggest to you that if one small holder retired to 

 Peterborough and bought four houses, this man must 

 have bought a street of houses? He would get his 

 daughters married off to other small holders in time. 

 That is a very exceptional case. . 



8471. I daresay you know the family? Trolly? 



8472. Yes? Poor old Trolly is dead; but he was 

 only in that holding for about five years. He was a 

 farm foreman himself before he took that holding. 

 I think he only had the holding for five or perhaps 

 six years. He left his widow something like 500, 

 and she is living in one of our cottages to-day, and 

 goes out to do occasional work. He evidently made 

 a profit of about 100 a year on that holding during 

 those fiva years. 



8473. You have been criticised about the number of 

 horses on these holdings. I venture to submit to you 

 that some of thetee small holders not only bred 

 horses, like Mr. Trolly, but they must have dealt 

 in horses, too. Do not you think that would account 

 for the great number of horses? A great number 

 of these smallholders do a great deal of carting for 

 the Rural District Council ; in winter time they cart 

 great quantities of granite on to the roads; that 

 is a very favourite occupation. 



8474. That is to say, they get carting outside their 

 holdings? Yes. 



8475. Then with regard to the thatching, I daresay 

 many of these smallholdings have very excellently 

 built buildings ; they have Dutch barns, and that 

 would save a certain amount of thatching? We only 

 have Dutch barns on one of the Wingland farms. 



8476. Is that all? Yes, I wish we had more. 



8477. I thought I saw them at Moulton ? On the 

 Crown? 



8478. YesP You may have done on the Moulton 

 Estate. 



8479. Most of these smallholders owe their exist- 

 ence to the enterprise of Parish Councils, do they 

 not? It is only in that one case of Moulton where 

 the Parish Council went in for smallholdings ; other- 

 wise the Parish Council have dealt with allotments 

 only. 



8480. Only in the Moulton case? Only in that one 

 emi i. 



8481. Are most of the stock-holding smallholdings 

 from 20 to 30 acres? I' thought there were some at 

 40 acres ?^- We have not many. I think perhaps we 

 may have one or two. 



8482. Most of them are 20 to 30 acres/? Yes; 25 

 acres is about our average. 



8483. Can you give us your opinion of the economic 

 size of a holcb'ng on medium land on which the 

 occupier can work two horses? About 25 to 30 acres. 



8484. You think as small as that? I do, because 

 he would find other work for hh horses, and he does 

 as a matter of fact find other work. 



8485. 1 meant keeping them entirely at work ; what 

 would you consider the economic size? If he has two 

 horses, probably one is a mare with a foal, and it 

 would not be working all the year. He would rest 

 it three or four months, so that during that time 

 he would only have one. 



8486. These smallholdings hav> increased the pro- 

 duction and prosperity of neighbouring villages, have 

 they not? They have increased the population. 



8487. With the exception of one co-partnership 

 farm of 123 acres, nt Wingland. there has been almost 

 an entire absence of co-operation or marketing facili- 

 ties? With the exception of this Wingland Trading 



