MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



109 



3 September, 1919.] 



SIR RICHARD WINFREY, M.P. 



[Continued. 



8523. So that is really the final change that has 

 been introduced? Yes, that is the great change. 



8524. Have you any means of comparing the amount 

 produced on the other 900 acres with the amount 

 produced now, leaving out the fruit area? Some 

 of the men who are now smallholders were workmen 

 on the farm, and they all tell me that the land is 

 producing at least 50 per cent, more than it did 

 under previous management. 



8525. About 50 per cent, more? Yes, the crops 

 are very much bigger. 



8526. Have you any means of comparing the cost 

 of production then with the cost of production now? 

 No ; of course, during those days wages were about 

 2s. 6d. a day. 



8527. So that it is quite conceivable that the cost 

 of production per unit under the old system was 

 much less than it was even before war prices? 

 Yes. I should think we ara spending as much in 

 labour on the 120 acres that we run as a co-partner- 

 ship area on that part as he did on the whole farm. 



8528. You said in reply to another Commissioner, 

 that you were of opinion that the cost of production 

 was greater on large holdings than on small hold- 

 ings. 



Chairman: I do not think he said that. 



8529. Mr. Thomas Henderson: 1 think he said so 

 in reply to Dr. Douglas? I do not think I quite 

 put it like that. 



8530. I think Dr. Douglas put the question to 

 you in that form and you agreed? 



8531. Dr. Douglas: I think I referred in my ques- 

 tion to the productiveness of labour? Yes, to the 

 productiveness of labour. 



8532. And the answer was that the labour on small- 

 holdings was more efficient than on large holdings? 

 That is how I understood your question. 



8533. Mr. Thomas Henderson : But would you agree 

 that the cost of production in this particular case 

 was larger on the small holding than on the large 

 one? In some cases, yes; in other cases, no. If a 

 farmer has five or six farms, he is paying for manage- 

 ment, and that has to be taken into account. 



8534. Which of these two systems, the small holding 

 and the large holding, would yield the largest 

 quantity of produce on the market for consumers 

 per individual? I think the small holding, certainly. 



8535. You have no figures for that, have you? 

 No, I have no figures. 



8536. Mr. Dallas : You are familiar with the terms 

 of reference to this Commission : to deal with the 

 economic prospects of agriculture in the future? 

 Quite. 



8537. Apart from guarantees, is there anything that 

 you can suggest that would help farming in the 

 future, or give stability to agriculture in the future? 

 -Apart from guarantees ? 



8538. Yes? I have always been an advocate for 

 security of tenure, and the setting up of a Land 

 Court to which the tenart can appeal in case his 

 rent is raised unduly. 1 think the proposal in the 

 Welsh Land Commission, which was held some, years 

 ago. was an excellent idea. 



8539. We have statements like this made to us: 

 that " unless we get guarantees we will not cultivate 

 the land, or at any rate, we will not put the land 

 down to cultivation "? I do not hold that view. 



8540. You have a very long experience and a very 

 I>r<iad experience of the industry. Looking for some 

 years ahead, do you think the farmer will manage 

 along alright without any subsidy from the tax- 

 jiayf-r? I am quite sure of it. I should question 

 whether he wants it really, if it was put to him baldly. 



8541. You do not think he wants it? I do not 

 think he wants a subsidised industry. 



8542. We have been told repeatedly by witnesses 

 that unless definite guarantees and assurances were 

 given which might result in subsidies, and in some 

 eases actually were subsidies, the land will go out of 

 cultivation. You do not agree with that? No, I do 

 not agree with that. 



8543. Mr Proffer Jones : Would you tell the Com- 

 mission what thee pwple were doing prior to taking 

 up small holdings? 90 per cent, of them were ordin- 

 ary agricultural labourers. 



8544. Practical men? Yes, practical men. One of 

 them was a platelayer on the railway. He had had 

 previous experience in farming as a young man work- 

 ing on a farm. I should think probably altogether 

 seven or eight of them were men who had experience 

 on the railway and wished to come back to tho land. 



8545. How would these people manage; would they 

 borrow money for this purpose? No. They all had 

 a little capital ; and in some cases, where we were 

 quite sure of our men we trusted them with the 

 inventory, the tenant right, for the first year or so, 

 and they paid it off by instalments. 



8546. I think you are an advocate of small hold- 

 ings? Yes, I am; on suitable land. 



8547. Would you mind telling us now, if you had 

 the opportunity of reverting back these 2,300 acres, 

 would you allow them to go back to one large farm 

 or would you still retain small holdings under present 

 conditions? I would still retain them, certainly. 



8548. And would you break up further large farms? 

 I would, especially where men have got four or five 

 farms ; I should have no hesitation. 



8549. Are there any failures in your records con- 

 cerning these men? We had, I think, on the whole 

 about three failures. 



8550. Out of how many? Out of the 290 tenants. 

 To my recollection I am speaking from memory- 

 there were two men I had to get rid of because of 

 their drunken habits, and one man who ran away 

 because he could not get on with his wife; so he 

 bolted. I think I am right in saying that those are 

 the only three cases where we have lost tenants. 



8551. Do you find a demand for small holdings? 

 I find it greater than ever in this district. 



8552. Are you able to meet the demand? Now, you 

 see, this Association of mine is coming to a stop, as 

 it were, because we are passing them all on to the 

 County Council. This Association started when the 

 County Council had no power to create small hold- 

 ings, or when it would not put the 1892 Act into 

 force. The 1892 Small Holding Act was merely a 

 permissive measure, as you know ; there was no com- 

 pulsion behind it, and as the men could not get land 

 I started this Association; but now we pass them all 

 on to the County Council. 



8553. Is the County Council likely to do as well as 

 this Association? They are a little more expensive 

 in their management ; they put on 15 per cent, for 

 their management. I reckon we manage this for 5 

 per cent. 



8554. What is your experience of the farmer work- 

 ing under the County Councils? Is it not a fact that 

 quite a largo number of County Councillors are 

 adverse to small holdings? They do not say so now 

 openly. 



8555. What is your experience? I often wonder 

 whether they still think so. They were opposed to 

 me when I was Chairman of the Small Holdings 

 Committee in this very area. I was the first Chair- 

 man of the Small Holdings Committee, and they bit- 

 terly opposed me; but they are giving it lip service 

 now, at any rate. 



8550. I thought possibly from the fact that quite 

 a large number of applicants are continually on the 

 books of the County Councils? They might move 

 much faster, if they would. 



8557. Then with regard to the efficiency of the 

 workers on large farms as compared with these small 

 holders. I take it that there is no cause for com- 

 plaint in connection with these people who work 

 their own holdings ; they do it in their own in- 

 terest, I take it? Yes, they do it in their own in- 

 terest. Of course there are some of them even there 

 who are better than others. There are some better 

 farmers than others; but we have no hesitation when 

 we see a man is not farming up to what we call a 

 good standard, in telling him he has got to improve, 

 and if he does not he will cease to be a tenant. 



8558. Is there anyone supervising these groups of 

 holdings, or does each man supervise his own work?-- 

 Each man supervises his own work, and then we have 

 a steward who looks after the whole thing. He goes 

 in and out amongst them. 



8559. Do you find any improvement in the status of 

 these people once they take up their own holdings, 

 I mean as citizens as compared with the ordinary farm 



