no 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 



3 Stfltmbtr, 1919.] 



SIR RICHARD WINFREY, M.P. 



[Continued. 



worker; are they better citiEens? Honestly, I am a 

 Int!.' disappointed with that aspect of the small 

 holder. Ht> is inclinod to be too self-centred, and 

 not to take sufficient public interest, as I think he 

 uught to do, in tin- welfare of the district, and ; 

 ally what I call the social and moral improvement of 

 the community. Ho is a little too self-centred. 1 

 have been obliged to come, to that conclusion after 



. ars' experience. It is one of my disapi 

 ments." 



8660. He is a little more devoted to his own hold- 

 ing? He is a little too selfish, if I may say so; but, 

 mark you, I do not say if he had been an agricultural 

 labourer he would have been any better; I do not 

 think he would ; but he has not quite risen as I 

 should like to have seen him rise in that scale of being 

 a better member of the community. 



8561. Mr. Lennard : Mr. Cnutley examined you a 

 little while ago on the profits that you show on these 

 figures, and he seemed to think that the profits were 

 excessive. There is just one point I want to ask you 

 about, if I may. It is on your Norfolk figures, 

 paragraph (7), third year, an acre of barley follow- 

 ing mangold*. I notice you put down the value of 

 your 5J quarters at 70s. a quarter? Yea; that is 

 very low. Of course I was anxious to be accurate ; 

 but I may say that the very day I interviewed this 

 man, I came up in the tra : ri with a farmer who told 

 me that he had sold his barley at OOs., and I believe 

 that this man will make 90s. 'on his barley for malt- 

 ing purposes. I understand that Bas's people are 

 giving up to 100s. a quarter for malting barley. 



8562. Yes; that ia the point I want to bring out. 

 I noticed the price the last few days of 90s. up to 

 100s- That would of pour e increase your profit very 

 considerably? If this man makes another 1 a 

 quarter, it will put another 5 10s. Od. on to it. 



8563. You said just now in answer to one of the 

 Commissioners, that you consider the future of Eng- 

 lish agriculture will be prosp. ronsl- 1 said that I 

 look forward to the future without any fear. 



8564. Do you hold that op nion specifically of tillage 

 farming? I do; that ia the farming I know most 

 about. I know very little about grazing. 



8565. I understand that you do not consider any 

 guarantee higher than 55s. necessary for next year, 

 and that you would not prolong the 45s. guarantee 

 of the Corn Production Act lieyond 1922? I say I 

 would not begin to legislate until I got much ne'arer 

 1922 than to-day. 



8566. You would not at present contemplate any 

 extension of the 45s. guarantee ? No ; I would not at 

 present contemplate it. I say that to move step by 

 step is in my judgment the wisest thing to do. 



8567. Many of us here are inclined to think that the 

 world prices of cereals will continue to make cereal 

 production profitable in the future ; but we feel some 

 doubts as to whether the farmer believes that; so 

 the question arises whether a guarantee of, say, 60s. 

 for wheat for four years, may not be necessary to 

 save the country from the farmers' ignorance of the 

 world's pri"e, and to prevent his timidity leading 

 to an entirely unnecessary reduction of the arable 

 area? I think the farmer puts on that timidity. I 

 do not think it actually exists, from what I know 

 of him. I have a good deal of conversation with 

 farmer*; a good many of them are personal friends 

 of mine. I have two brothers-in-law farming, and 

 a nephew. I know nrettv well what is in their minds. 

 I <|.i not always take what they say for granted in 

 that re*! 



V. nffecl do < ti "'.U a gnUUtM MOB 

 as I have named is likely to have upon the efl: 

 nf fanning The chief fear I have myself about 

 guarantees is 1 that they may make the poor farmers 

 fix-l too wcure. They may enable such men to make 

 a living without improving their methods? Yes. I 

 laid npivial utrww on that: that Part IV of the Corn 

 irtic.n Art ought to be ruthlessly put into opera- 

 tion, and that we ought not to give these guarantee* 

 to thoB people who do farm their land badly. We 

 ought to penalise those men. 



8580. From your ex|wricinc of County Ooonofll and 



<v fV.mmitte,*. do *i-ou think it is likely that 



iK-h powers would He used effectively? During tho 



war the \V*r Agi icultnral Committees have done 



*Jieir work splendidly, and have insisted on better 



farming in many cases. It is a disagreeable business; 

 and whether those same men will continue to do it 

 now that the war is over and there is no fear of 

 course, it was fear that was at the back of it 

 uhether they would continue to do that whi'-h I call 

 disagreeable work, is doubtful. I wish tiny would. 

 1 tli ink we ought to try and get the best kind of 

 Agricultural Committee set up that we can, and give 

 thfiii tho power under that Part IV of tho Corn 

 Production Art, and level up those bad farmers. 



8570. I understood you just now to advocate a 

 Land Court to fix rents? No, not to fix rents aa 

 a court of appeal. Ultimately, it would fix rents, 

 of course if there were a disagreement. 



8571. Have you any fear that the existence of such 

 n Land Court might lead some farmers to farm with 



to winning the Court's pity at their dis- 



tresses. I think that has been suggested as a result 

 in Ireland? I think that the result of that would be, 

 that instead of a farmer farming under a lease, or 

 where he has a fear that tho place may be sold and 

 therefore ho is farming to leave, as it were, running 

 his farm to leave, as we call it, to some c\ 

 if ho knew he could go to a Land Court and have a 

 fair rent adjusted, providing there is a difference 

 with his landlord, I think it would improve general 

 good farming. 



2. You do not think there is any real danger 

 of his relying upon winning a reduction of rent 

 rather than upon his own enterprise? I do not think 

 RO, if the court were properly constituted. 



8573. Mr. Xieholln: With "regard to dairying, I 

 thought there was a hint earlier on that these little 

 men do not keep the proportion of cows they ought 

 to on tiieir holdings? The answer I gave was, that 

 I found they hud a tendency to decrease during the 

 war rather than to increase: so our steward says. 



s.->7l. In that area, do you know of any large 

 farmers who go in for dairying? No; it is not worth 

 their while; they do not bother about it. 



85 7o. It is not a dairying district? No. In tho 

 case, of a largo farmer who has 4 or 5 farms, all he 

 does is to keep one cow to supply milk to the 

 lalmurers. You can go to farm after farm and you 

 will not find a cow upon it. 



8576. Then there was a hint that these men on tho 

 smallholdings and their families have a very hard 

 time of it; anil I think you suggested that some of 

 the youn;r men do leave the holdings and go off to 

 the towns to get away from them? I do not think 

 it is to get away from tho hard work; I think it is to 

 get away from parental control. That is only in 

 some cases. But I have one or two cases in my mind 

 where young men have gone away; and that is the 

 reason they have given, that their father would not 

 pay them as they thought they ought to be paid. 



8577. Is it within your experience that these nion 

 who do go away, say some of them to railways and 

 others to other centres, if tho father dies or if ho 

 retires from a holding, are among the first applicants 

 to como back for his holding? They are, yes; that 

 is true. 



8578. So that it is quite clear that they do like 

 tho smallholder's life, hard as it is? Yes. I do not 

 think it is excessively hard myself. Tliev have a day 

 off when they like; and most of them go to market 

 now one day a week. 



8579. Tho suggestion was that they put in a 

 tremendous lot of overtime, and do not charge for i 

 in the accounts that are rendered each month? A 

 good many of us put in overtime, but we are none 

 the less happy for it. 



8580. But is not it tho fact that that overtime is 

 ( om|>ensated for to some extent by the fact that 



men and their wives, too, trot off when they like to 

 anything that is going on without asking. UM that 

 tliev really work not to dock time, but to the needs 

 ,,f their holding, which is a very different. thing? 

 Quite. When they want to go to an agricultural 

 show or a llowcr show they have a day off. 



8581. And with regard to the daughters, it is hinte-' 

 that it is a slave's life; but U it not a fact 

 generally these young men who go to the towns come 

 back to'thes* places for their wives?-Yes; they are 

 good judges. 



