MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



Ill 



3 September, 1919.] 



SIR RICHARD WINFREY, M.P.. 



[Continued. 



8582. One word about the census returns. I do 

 not know whether I quite understand you. Do not 

 they actually prove that during this period of 25 years 

 in which the holdings have developed, the actual 

 number of people living in the same area has largely 

 increased:' Yes. I got the census returns first for 

 1881 ; that wns the low-water murk. Then 1891, 

 where there had been a very slight increase; and then 

 1901, which showed a considerable increase, and that 

 confirmed at the next census. I took the census of 17 

 parishes, I think, around these holdings. 



8583. And did you find that there was quite a large 

 number of applicants for the land before war con- 

 ditions came on ; I mean the applications have been 

 standing for a long time? Yes. 



8584. It was not really war conditions that made 

 them keen? No, not at all. 



8585. Mr. Parker: I think you told us that the 

 figures you put before us are the estimates supplied 

 to you by the smallholders? Yes. 



8586. They are mere estimates ; I think you said 

 so once or twice? I do not say they are mere 

 estimates : because the 1913 figures are actual figures, 

 and 1919, of course, is an estimate, taking the prices 

 of last year as a guide. 



8587. Do these men keep any accounts? Yes. 

 8568. As Chairman of the Norfolk and Lincolnshire 



Smallholders' Association, I suppose you have taken 

 considerable care not to buy or hire any land unsuit- 

 able for smallholders? I would not call the Norfolk 

 land most suitable, but it was all that we could buy 

 at that time. We had to buy those three farms, I 

 may say. 



8589. But that does not compare with the Deeping 

 Farm or the Wingland Farm? No. The land in 

 Norfolk cost us about 20 an acre, and the Lincoln- 

 shire land was worth certainly 50 per cent, more at 

 that time. 



3590. You would agree that the success or non- 

 success of small holders depends almost entirely upon 

 the class of land upon which they are put? Yes, I 

 think so. 



8591. That is so in several neighbourhoods. I know. 

 It is absolutely necessary to have very good land? 

 Not very good land. I say that the small holder can 

 live on ordinary land ; but he naturally does better on 

 good land, as we all do. 



8592. Now the Willow- Tree Farm in Deeping Fen, 

 Lincolnshire, you say was purchased from Lord 

 Lincolnshire at 26 an acre? No; we only leased 

 that from him. I say the adjoining farm had been 

 sold to the Lincolnshire County Council a year before 

 the war at 26 an acre, and this is a similar farm. 



8593. What was the rent of the Deeping Farm an 

 acre the present rent? About 30s. 



8594. What would the rent of that farm be to-day ? 

 We have not increased the rent. 



8595. No; but I want to know what you think the 

 farm would lot for to-day? I think we could lot this 

 farm to-day easily for 50s. an acre. 



8596. Not more? It would be a fair rent. A man 

 would get a fair rent if he paid 50s. an acre. 



>7. It is some of the finest land in Lincolnshire, 

 is not it? No. This Deeping Fen is not anything 

 like as good as what we have at Holbeach, where land 

 is making 100 an acre. 



8598. It is not so good as the Norfolk farm? No; 

 it is not so well drained. 



8599. But it would let for 2 10s. an acre, and in 

 the charge made to vour tenants the rent is put at 

 2? Yes. 



8600. The rent really would be 2 10s.? Yes. 



8601. Then the Wingland Farm:' With regard to 

 the Wingland Farm, we all agreed to the market 

 I -rire. The outgoing tenant was paying practically 

 1 an acre; 1,01)0 for the farm, and the Crown then 

 asked us to pay, I think it was, about 32s. Then 

 we have got to pay extra for the equipment. 



SOO2. But 32s. does not at all represent the prosept 

 rental value of that farm, does it? They built us 

 something like over 20 houses, on which we hve got 

 to pay 5 per cent. 



8603. But the land would let for 3 nn acre now, 

 would not it? I think it would quite. 



8604. It is some of the very best land you can pos- 

 sibly have WinglaJid? It is a little too silty ; it is 

 not the best. There is much better land near to. I 

 should think there is some land which is worth 10s. 

 an acre more than this, which the Crown has close to. 

 All this land jvas covered by the sea in the time of 

 King John; it is at The Wash; and it is wonderful 

 how it varies. It so happens that a good deal of this 

 1,000 acres is rather on the silty side; it does not 

 grow such heavy crops of potatoes. 



8605. Would you agree that the County Councils 

 in Norfolk and Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire 

 and the Small Holders' Association, are gradually 

 acquiring for smallholders a great part of the very 

 best land in those counties? No. Really, if you work 

 out the percentage, it is very small still. 



8606. You think so? I not only think so, but I 

 know. If you take the total acreage of the parishes 

 and you find out what we have in smallholdings, it 

 will not come to more than 5 per cent. 



8607. All three County Councils are buying very 

 heavily, are they not? Yes; but the Norfolk County 

 Council, I think I am right in saying, have still less 

 than 10,000 acres. In Norfolk there are over a million 

 acres, I think. I am speaking from memory; but it 

 is not 5 per cent, of the whole, I can assure you. 



8608. At the same time you agree that the effect 

 is that when a farmer is turned out he probably 

 has to seek a holding where the land is much inferior? 

 No, I do not think so at all. Most of the farmers 

 who have been turned out have got equally good 

 farms. 



8609. It is not so in my neighbourhood? What 

 neighbourhood is that? 



8610. Take what is going on in Huntingdonshire? 

 Of course, there they have bought land down at 

 Ramsey. I do not think \re have got more than 

 5 per cent, of the land in Ramsey in smallholdings 

 yet. 



8611. What are they spending now a very large 

 sum, ia it not? Yes; wo are buying a good deal of 

 land from Lord de Ramsey. But when you come to 

 take the whole acreage of the parishes there, you 

 will find that it does not ^ome to more than 5 per 

 cent. 



8612. Are the farmers giving up the land willingly, 

 or some of them under compulsory orders? Some 

 under compulsory orders ; but most of them have 

 made their fortunes, so there is not much to grumble 

 about. 



8613. I suppose you would agree that the profits 

 from the land in the hands of the smallholders in 

 those counties are not at all comparable with the 

 profits that can be made on the light lands? No; 

 the former is the very cream of the district for small- 

 holders. 



8614. That is the gist of the whole thing: that 

 the good land has a better yield, and therefore the 

 smallholder does well ? Yes ; but he has not got his 

 share of it yet. He has only got 5 per cent, of it. 

 I shall not be satisfied until he gets nearer 25 per 

 cent, of it. 



8615. We have evidence before us of average yield 

 of corn per acre based on 13,500 acres in Norfolk ; 

 and the average yield of wheat was only 21-42 bushels; 

 of oats, 46-14 bushels; of barley, 18.29 bushels, and 

 of rye 14-03 bushels. That is far below the yield that 

 your smallholders get? Yes. It depends entirely 

 upon where that district is. If it is in a very poor 

 district in Norfolk, in one of these huge game pre- 

 serving districts, I am not at all surprised at that 

 low yield, because no self-respecting farmer would 

 go into those districts. 



8616. I see the profits you show are 2 5s. lOd. per 

 acre, which your man made in 1913, against 4 Os. 4d. 

 per acre this year?. Is this Lincolnshire or Norfolk? 



8617. It is Lincolnshire, page 4. Considering the 

 depreciated purchasing power of money that is not a 

 very great profit, is it? I mean the 2 5s. lOd. in 

 1913 is just as good as the 4 Os. 4d. at the present 

 time? It is not if you want to invest your profits 

 in War Loan. If you invest 4 in War Loan, 

 that brings you in better interest than 2 5s. lOd. 

 would. Supposing that is a profit which he has to 

 invest in 1914, ho would get 4 per cent, or perhnps 



