CONGRESS, UNITED STATES. 



129 



organized to have power to investigate into all 

 matters of retrenchment, all matters of public 

 abuses, let the resolution be passed as it is 

 presented, and it will be very easy at any time 

 for this committee to call for the requisite 

 power to investigate such matters." 



Mr. Wilson, of Massachusetts, said: "Mr. 

 President, we all agree, or profess to agree, 

 and I have no doubt we are all sincere in it, 

 that we desire to do every thing here that can 

 be done to prevent abuses or to correct them 

 when they have occurred. Now, sir, a prop- 

 osition was brought in to appoint a joint com- 

 mittee with certain powers, and they are the 

 powers that were given to joint committees 

 in past years. It is thought best to have a 

 Senate committee, a standing committee of 

 this body, to be not only a standing committee 

 now, but to continue perhaps in years to come 

 as a standing committee of the Senate, who- 

 ever may be President of the United States. 

 It is a general proposition, which has nothing 

 to do with any abuses that have grown up re- 

 cently or at any other time, but applying to 

 the general service of the country, and I think 

 applying for years to come. 



"Now, sir, the proposition is to establish 

 this committee to accomplish the very pur- 

 poses suggested by the Senator from Illinois 

 in his amendment. The Senator from Khode 

 Island says he will vote for that proposition 

 just as soon as the committee is ordered. 

 Why, then, have an apparent division here in 

 the Senate on that subject ? If he is ready to 

 vote for it when the committee is appointed, 

 what is the difficulty in voting for it when 

 you make the committee? I am perfectly 

 willing to vote for the committee, and then 

 for the proposition of the Senator from Illinois ; 

 or I am willing to vote for the committee and 

 for the amendment of the Senator from Illinois 

 in one proposition. There is no real difference 

 between the two. It is only the difference 

 between tweedledum and tweedledee. It is an 

 apparent difference here when in reality there 

 is none." 



Mr. Thurman, of Ohio, said: "The differ- 

 ence with the committee to be raised on the 

 resolution of the Senator from Rhode Island, 

 if it be passed without amendment, is that that 

 committee will have cognizance of nothing but 

 what shall be referred to it specifically by the 

 Senate. The argument will be immediately, 

 if that committee is to have an investigation, 

 there must be some charge made against A B 

 or against D in open Senate, and then that 

 charge referred to that committee; that in- 

 stead of its being a committee to hunt up 

 abuses itself and report them to the Senate, 

 the Senate is to find out the abuses and prefer 

 them to the committee. That is the truth of 

 it, and ^undertake to say that if this commit- 

 tee is raised on this resolution of the Senator 

 from Rhode Island, without amendment, and 

 then the course is taken that it is to have 

 jurisdiction of nothing but such specific charges 



VOL. XII. 9 A 



as may be referred to it by the Senate, it will 

 not be worth the paper the resolution is writ- 

 ten on." 



Mr. Trumbull said: "If there were only the 

 difference which the Senator from Massachu- 

 setts thought between the offering of the 

 amendment which I have offered now, and 

 waiting until the committee is formed and 

 then offering it, I should withdraw it at once 

 and offer it afterward. I should be entirely 

 willing to do that if he were right about it ; 

 but, sir, he is evidently mistaken. There is 

 something more here than the difference be- 

 tween tweedledum and tweedledee. The Sen- 

 ator from Rhode Island tells me he would vote 

 for my proposition, and the Senator from Ohio 

 (Mr. Sherman) gives us notice that he would 

 vote to give this committee authority to make 

 investigations on the statement of a Senator, 

 or on the request of the committee he would 

 give them power to send for persons and pa- 

 pers. I want to vest this power originally in 

 the committee, so that they shall have it with- 

 out having their attention called to the par- 

 ticular subject. I cannot express that in bet- 

 ter language than the Senator's colleague ex- 

 pressed it. The object which I have in view 

 in the creation of this committee is, to have a 

 committee that will itself inquire into these 

 abuses if they exist, into the manner of keep- 

 ing accounts, and try and correct them, with- 

 out being moved upon by the Senate. I want 

 this committee to get the information for the 

 Senate, and not the Senate to have the infor- 

 mation and send it to the committee to inves- 

 tigate afterward. There is the difference. It 

 is very manifest, from what the Senator from 

 Ohio says, that he does not propose to have 

 the committee vested with power to send for 

 persons and papers, vested with power to ex- 

 amine into those abuses on its own motion, 

 but it must be done when a particular case is 

 called to their attention. I think such a com- 

 mittee as that will amount to nothing." 



Mr. Anthony said: "It seems to me that 

 the difference between what the Senator from 

 Illinois proposes and what is proposed in the 

 original resolution, so far as he desires, is 

 merely a technical one. It is whether this 

 committee shall be invested in the beginning 

 with all the powers with which we can invest 

 it, and with which we do invest other com- 

 mittees from time to time, or whether it shall 

 stand precisely on the same platform as all 

 our other standing committees. The Senator 

 from Ohio farthest from me (Mr. Thurman) 

 objects because the committee will not inves- 

 tigate matters of its own motion. That is a 

 recommendation, in my view. I do not want 

 a committee to investigate any matter unless 

 there is sufficient ground for accusation for it 

 to be referred to them, and, whenever any 

 thing comes to the knowledge of any member 

 of a committee that ought to be investigated, 

 it is the duty of that Senator to make a mo- 

 tion in this body referring the matter to the 



