MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



16 September, 1919.] 



PROFESSOR E. G-. WHITE. 



[Continued. 



They have been faced by new conditions and new 

 difficulties, and they have come more readily to our 

 staff for advice than ever before. 



9918-19. You look forward, do you, as a result of 

 educational progress, to considerably levelling up 

 farming efficiency? Yes. 



9920. Mr. Langford : Your farm is mainly for ex- 

 perimental and educational purposes P That is its 

 primary object. 



9921. Do you find that farmers' sons and others 

 take readily to the tuition you are prepared to im- 

 part? Yes, the majority of our students are 

 farmers' sons. 



9922. And their interest is keen? Very keen. 



9923. Is it your experience that if there were a 

 great many more of these farms in the country, it 

 would be a lasting benefit to agriculture? I would 

 not like to say a great many more; I would like to 

 see a certain increase. But what is needed more than 

 anything else, I think, is better equipment and 

 staffing of those that do exist already. 



9924. I agree with you. In other words, the Board 

 of Agriculture or the Government ought to be more 

 liberal in the way of grants and so on to the various 

 experimental farms? That is so. 



9925. But I think you would agree there ought to 

 be one in each county, would you not? It depends 

 on the counties. In the case of very small counties 

 you might have a grouping; but certainly one in 

 every fairly large county or in groups of small 

 counties. 



9926. It may not be necessary to have one in each 

 county in Wales, but in the more fertile land of 

 England it would probably be necessary? I am speak- 

 ing for Wales. 



9927. You think, at any rate, that there are not too 

 many at the present time? No, there certainly arc 

 not. 



9928. And there is room for great extension in that 

 direction? I do not want to see the number so 

 increased that each of them is starved. A certain 

 extension is needed ; but the number should not be so 

 large that if the amount of money available is limited, 

 each is starved when it is established. 



9929. Do you agree that farmers would benefit very 

 greatly by a better system of agricultural education? 

 Yes, undoubtedly. 



9930. Mr. Proaer Jones : You took this farm in 

 1910, I think ? Yes. 



9931. It was then in a very bad state? I do not say 

 it was in a very bad state. I say it was not in good 

 condition. I would not like to say it was an out- 

 standingly bad farm, but it was not in the condition 

 we should like to have it. 



9932. It was in that state that you were unable to 

 make anything out of it for two years? It was not 

 entirely due to that. You are referring to what I 

 say with regard to carrying out experiments. The 

 reason was not merely due to the bad state of the farm 

 entirely, but it was also due to the fact that the time 

 and energies of the staff were devoted a good deal 

 towards getting the necessary arrangements made for 

 the transfer and so on and supervising the erection of 

 new buildings and that sort of thing. It was the 

 general disturbance as well as the fact that the farm 

 was not in the condition that it ought to have been. 



9933. Am I safe in saying that you adopted a 

 different method of farming? Yes, a totally different 

 system. 



9934. Is it not right to say that you used fertilisers 

 very freely? Yes. 



9935. What I wanted to ask you was whether this 

 farm you took over is typical of other farms in your 

 district? Do vou mean was it tvpical before we 

 took it? 



9030. Yes? It was not quite typical in this way, 

 that the previous tenant laid all the land down to 

 grass, and simply used it very largely as a sheep run. 

 That tendency was noticeable and is noticeable at 

 the present time among similar farms ; but at the 

 same time it was not carried to such extremes as by 

 the prev'ons tenant of this farm. 



!K).'t7. You say in your precis that you took out a 

 lease for 35 years. It was lot previously on a yearly 

 tenancy was it? I am not quite certain of that. At 



258S1 



any rate the previous tenant farmed I tihink fairly 

 well, knowing that he would have the farm during his 

 lifetime. I mean the estate is well known as not 

 interfering with sitting tenants unduly. But I can- 

 not answer definitely as to whether he actually had a 

 lease or not. 



9938. Then I take it, it is safe to say you had no 

 fear of being turned out. That was not the reason 

 why you took out the lease, was it? That we had no 

 fear of being turned out? 



9939. Yes? As we had just been turned out of the 

 previous farm, we naturally were a little apprehen- 

 sive. At any rate we did not want to run any risks. 

 Also there was the fact of course, that we were 

 prepared to do more in the way of permanent im- 

 provements than an ordinary tenant, and we wanted 

 to be secure. 



9940. Would it have been safer to go the whole hog 

 and buy this farm out? You know it is being, done 

 in Wales very generally, is it not? Yes; but I might 



say I was not in charge of the farm at the time. I 

 cannot say whether the farm could have been bought, 

 or whether the College was in a position to buy it. 

 1 imagine it might have been a little difficult to find 

 the purchase money. 



9941. On what grounds is this 200 grant paid to 

 the College? For experimental and educational work. 



9942. Is this the scholarship of the County Council 

 that you refer to? No, it has nothing to do with the 

 scholarships. This is money spent on experimental 

 work on the farm. 



9943. What area of instruction does this College or 

 farm cover? Four counties Anglesea, Carnarvon- 

 shire, Denbighshire and Flintshire. 



9944. Do you find 40 pupils an excessive number? 

 Do you think one College for four counties is suffi- 

 cient? One College of that type is quite sufficient for 

 four counties. We hope, particularly now, to devote 

 our College more to the higher work ; and for that 

 purpose one College to four counties such as our's at 

 any rate, is quite sufficient. 



9945. Do you think it is possible to have similar 

 results from similar farms in your district, say? 

 Generally we find the farmers are complaining that 

 they are not doing well. This farm in 9 years time 

 has been able to do quite well ? Of course you see the 

 exact position. In 8 years I think it is not 9 years 

 there was an average of about 400 per annum to 

 cover interest, clerical work, and management ex- 

 penses. 



9946. And for two years out of that you did nothing 

 but lose money? Yes. I think I may say that really 

 to get a proper idea of the working of this farm you 

 must average up ; because when you say we lost money, 

 I do not think that actually speaking so much money 

 was actually lost as that money was invested, and the 

 return came back in the later years. 



9947. But is not it safe to say that this farm or 

 college concentrates more upon the spreading of educa- 

 tion than upon financial results? Yes; but in the 

 summary that I have drawn up I have tried, as far 

 as it is possible to do so, and it is very difficult indeed, 

 to separate the one from the other and give you the 

 results of tte farm as a commercial undertaking. 



9948. Mr. Green: I was rather interested when I 

 was reading Sir Daniel Hall's book on the " Pil- 

 grimage of British Farming " in the statement he 

 made as to I think it was in Carnarvonshire as to 

 how suitable the land, climate, and position were for 

 intensive cultivation, that is, small holdings. I was 

 wondering whether your college had done anything in 

 that direction in the way of training young fellows 

 to cultivate intensively in small holdings? Not 

 directly. I may say that our present farm is not 

 particularly suited to that system of cultivation ; and 

 as a matter of fact I think the district to which Sir 

 Daniel Hall referred was particularly South Carnar- 

 vonshire where there is land eminently suited for 

 intensive cultivation, as also in many parts of Angle- 

 sea and some others in North Carnarvonshire. 



9949. Has the movement made any strides in con- 

 nection with small holdings in South Carnarvonshire? 

 A certain amount, but not so much as we should 

 like. The development has not been as great or as 



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