i-j 



ROVAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTUKK. 



pUmlxr, . 



MK. H. AuMuLK am' MR. O. G. MEXCER. 



[L'niUinufd. 



rwrjr well paid for 



although you do want to pay them well for it they 

 do not care about doing it at all. We have all 

 three difficulties to contend with. 



10.102. You refer also to the increased rates of 

 education. We in this country are possibly behind 

 you in Scotland, and I should like to have your 

 view* a* to education and its effect upon the working 

 men on the farm* and also upon farmer* themselves? 

 The only experience we have at present is of the 

 cost of education. We know that that has practi- 

 cally men 50 per cent, on account of this new 

 arrangement. As far as the new Education Act is 

 concerned with regard to farm working, we anti- 

 cipate that it will very materially affect it. As I 

 say, we have no experience of that yet, but judging 

 from what happens in other employments, we think 

 that it will very much restrict the labour of young 

 people on the farms. We have to allow them away 

 to attend these evening classes for two hours a night, 

 or for two hours a day four days a week. We anti- 

 cipate that that will increase our difficulty in getting 

 young people on to the farms. 



1 1 >. 103. Referring hack to the responsible Com- 

 mittee which you suggest should be appointed to fix 

 the prices every year during the 5 years' course 

 which you propose, what kind of Committee would you 

 suggest how would you constitute the Committee? 



I \<onl(l rather leave it to this Commission to 

 fix a Committee, but if I had to suggest the. consti- 

 tution of it I would suggest that not only the interest 

 of the farmer and the farm worker, but also the 

 interest of the landlord should be represented on the 

 Committee. 



10,104. Do you mean that the State should guaran- 

 tee wages to tne labourer which is practically already 

 guaranteed wages and a profit to the farmer, and 

 also the rent to the landowner? Certainly. 



10.103. I presume you are a farmer yourself?- 1 am. 

 1".106. In view of the fact that you ask the State 



to undertake such burdens as those, do you think that 

 - ;. will do it without having 



absolute control of the farms, and farming the land 

 and everything else? I would not suggest that they 

 should have absolute control, but I think they would 

 he entitled to get certain figures from farmers \\hi.h 

 would ju-tify them in fixing these minimum prices. 

 1 would u*k for mch information from farmers as they 

 could give. I do not think 1 would trouble them to 

 give a complete balance sheet of their farm, because 

 with the present generation of fiirmers I think that 

 would be impossible; you will never get them to give 

 iplete balance sheet of thoir farm; the men are 

 not trained to do it, and unless they kept clerks to 

 provide it, I do not see how you could get that from 

 farmer*. 



10.107. Not even in Scotland? Not even in S<-.>t 

 land. 



10.108. My point is this: if we recommend the 

 State to giro the guarantees that you ask for, would 

 you bo prepared to allow your farm to be put under 

 complete control, similar to what was done during the 

 war that there should be an Order upon you to 

 plough up BO much land and to cultivate it in a 

 certain way, on similar lines to what was done during 

 the war? I am afraid that would be impracticable : 

 you could not exercise complete control or you world 

 destroy the whole industry. 



10.109. l)o you really think that for the Si 



fix pricm in this wav is practicable. Do you, as a 

 farmer, favour the idea of the State stepping in in 

 >ay and fixing the wages and prices and every- 

 thing in Iho manner suggested by you? I would 

 rather not hove it at all, but at the same time \<>u 

 have got to face the difficulty that unless you <1 

 something of that kind, the whole of the land will go 

 out of cultivation : the expenses of the cultivation of 

 Und nt tho pr*ent time are enormous. 



I'M 10. Have you paid any attention to what is the 

 likely trend >f world prices in the future, w ith regard 

 iin rroj** Judging from past experience, when 

 farmer* had to accept from about 23*. to 80s. 

 for potatoex, and from 20*. to 25*. a quarter for wheat. 

 and from 38*. to 86*. for fat cattle, then of course we 

 farmer* who have come through that period anticipate 



::...i the tame thing will happen again unions tl. 

 something to stop it; that is what we are afraid of. 



10.111. It has been asked here, and 1 will put t!,. 

 .-.amc question to you ; assuming that the. State .should 

 follow your advice and gi\<- tlie i..nn. r* this guarantee 

 11 round, do you not think that other industries will 

 ask for the same thing the manufacturers f . 

 menU and of all other HI 1 es, but I think it is 

 especially in the farming industry if the country i- 

 U> go on at all, that the rural population ought to be 

 encouraged for the purpose of supplying the bone and 

 MUCK for these industries of which you talk. The 

 farming industry has a different claim altogether up- n 

 the nation. If it is to go on and to produce food 

 for the men who work in those other industries,. and 

 to produce food for the country, then you mu 

 s:<ler whether it is to still go on, or whether it i- to 

 sink. 



10.112. Assuming that no guarantees be given and 

 that we follow the same path as before, what will be 

 the result in Scotland ? The result in Scotland will be 

 that every farmer will hurry to put his land down to 

 grass. He cannot continue to farm unless he reduces 

 his labour bill. I know, in my own case, my first 

 operation would be to put away one-third of my 

 horses and one-third of my men and lay my fields 

 down into grass. Instead of growing potatoes and 

 cereals. I would produce grass and feed my land 

 through the grass. I simply could not continue to 

 produce potatoes and fat cattle under the present 

 circumstances or what we see in the future before us. 



10.113. On account of the cost of labour? And 

 other material manures. 



10.114. Assuming you did, what would be the result. 

 Do you think you would be able to produce a larger 

 quantity of beef and mutton? Certainly not a 

 smaller quantity. It has never paid the farmers in 

 Scotland to produce beef and mutton beef especially. 



10.115. What has it paid them to produce? Of 

 course some crops pay and others do not pay, but we 

 all know that the man persists in feeding the cattle. 

 There are some years in which he comes out all ri^lit, 

 but, as a general rule, he loses money. He prr 



the manure from the cattle at an enormous expense 

 and the?i he is recuperated through his green crops 

 and his cereal crops. That is where he produces his 

 profits, not in the feeding of cattle. 



10.116. Assuming you do not cultivate at all, where 

 would the profit como from? I would not have the 

 expense; it is the expense that is going to run away 

 with the thing the labour and the cost of mair- 



10.117. Your remedy is that the prices of corn, 

 wheat, oats and barley should be fixed by a permanent 

 Committee ? Quite. 



10.118. Mr. Duncan: Has this statement that you 

 have put in been before the Committee of the Cham- 

 ber? It has. 



10.119. Is this accepted as the statement of the 

 Committee? Yes. 



10.120. Is what you say in paragraph 4 and which 

 you have explained here to-day the view of tho Cham- 

 ber as to the method of arriving at the cost of the 

 production of cereal crops that is to say simply 

 taking the same cost for all crops? Yes. 



10.121. Is that the view of the Chamber? The 

 difficulty is in taking a crop by itself and putting 

 down so much for ploughing and so much for har- 

 rowing and so much for each of the operations. The 

 difficulty is, whether these operations are put d<>\\ u 

 with a view to profit or whether they are put down 

 as the net cost. The way it is dealt with here is it 

 is the net cost, and the wages cost which is the high 

 cost, and we spread them across the three crops. We 

 think that wo can only arrive at a true estimate on 

 those lines. 



10.122. I am not questioning the validity of your 

 method ; I simply want to know whether this is the 

 method adopted by the Chamber after consideration? 

 It is. 



10.123. The figures you have given us are the actual 

 I for your own farm? Exactly. 



10.124. How many men had you employed on the 

 farm in 1913? I could not tell you that. I had only 

 eight men employed that were getting benefit*. 



