MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



67 



17 September, 1919.] 



MR. H. ARMOUR and MR. G. G. MERCER. 



[Continued. 



rose from 4s. lOd. a quarter to 22s. 6d. Does not that 

 suggest to you that you need not fear any possible 

 rise of wages in, the near future? That is only on 

 wheat. These are the actual expenses. Whether it 

 works out the way you want it to work out, I do 

 not know. 



11,009. I am asking you the question. Then with 

 regard to your average figures at the foot of Table 

 Xo. 2, I think you say these averages were taken over 

 a period of years':' Yes. 



11.070. Does that include the last year of your 

 working, 1918? Yea. 



11.071. Then might I ask- whether your production 

 for 1918 was up to tho average? In some items it 

 was not quito up. It you take, for instance, the 

 saddler, wo have been rather keeping from sending 

 to the saddler, and that is another item which, in 

 future yours, will have to be accounted for. Your 

 harness gets deteriorated, and you do not replace 

 it. U-cause prices are so high just now. 



11.072. I was talking about the figures at the foot of 

 Table No. 2, the production of wheat per acre 5 

 quarters, barley 5 quarters, and oats 6 quarters. I am 

 asking you if your production last year was up to the 

 average? My production of barley last voar was 

 4-76. 



11.073. And of wheat? I could not give you last 

 year, but I will give you the year before, because 



,i-ar I had some destroyed oy fire. It was 5-3. 

 1I.H74. And oats? I cannot give you oats. 



11.075. Taking it through the wheat and barley, 

 one might say the average had been maintained 

 last year? Yes, I think, about. 



11.076. In that case was it necessary for you to 

 go to such an extraordinary expense, as you intimated 

 to another Commissioner, for cleaning the land? . 

 The land has to be cleaned. That is all about it. 



11.077. Was the necessity for cleaning it so very 

 great? Yes. 



11.078. Yet your average production was kept up 

 last year? Yes, on wheat. 



11.079. And on oats, and almost barley:' Wheat, 

 you know, is produced on the farm under quite dif- 

 ferent conditions. It is put on the best land, and it 

 follows potatoes ; and in that case you expect to get 

 a pood yield . 



11.0-^t. With regard to the question of policy, Mr. 



Mercer, you admit there are serious difficulties in tho 



way of fixing guarantees, or even promising guaran- 



Yini ; iltnit that th' general public has to be 



considered!' (Mr. Mercer): Certainly. 



11.081. You are aware that a certain section of the 

 public at' any rate will want a very strong case made 

 out before you get guarantees? Yes. 



11,02. I suppose your Chamber have considered 

 that possibility? Have they thought out any sort of 

 policy at ail that they could recommend their mem- 

 bers to adopt, should the decision go against continu- 

 ing guarantees to agriculture? I am afraid the mem- 

 liers will adopt their own policy if th>re is any doubt 

 in their minds ae to the future. 



11.083. Has the Chamber itself done anything? 

 We have not recommended them to put land down to 

 grass, because I do not think that would be in the 

 national interest at all ; and we wish to keep it under 

 cultivation as far as possible. All along that has 

 been the key-note of what we have done. It was 

 really to keep up the cultivation for tho national 

 good. 



11.084. Could yon tell me how much land went 

 down to grass in the Lothians during the previous 

 period of depreciation? (Mr. Armour): I could not 

 tell you, but it was a considerable amount; and it 

 was going down right up to when the war started 

 and prices began to get better. 



11.085. You do not know to what extent that was 

 going on? No, I do not. (Mr. Mercer) : It would be 

 difficult to say exactly, but it was to a very great 

 extent. 



11.086. That is rather vague, and it Is a very im- 

 nt problem just now? (Mr. Armour): The 



figures can be got from the Board of Agriculture 

 returns. 



11.087. I think if your Chamber could get them, it 

 would be very helpful ; and also the figures to show 

 how the movement was going during tho last 20 years 



MSI 



before the war. You suggested that you saw no reason 

 why we should not be able to feed ourselves in course 

 of time? To a very considerable extent. 



11.088. I think you went further than that. Have 

 you any idea how many acres of arable land are re- 

 quired? I have not gone into the question. 



11.089. Then on what do you base your opinion? 

 On an opinion. 



11.090. And you cannot give us any figures? No, 

 I cannot. 



11.091. It has been stated here by another witness 

 that it would take some 14,000,000 acres? I cannot 

 go into those figures. (Mr. Mercer) : Of course during 

 the war we saw how the nation was becoming rapidly 

 more self-supporting as the years went on. We have 

 the figures for that. We have all read them and seen 

 them. 



11.092. Do you know what the maximum extent of 

 cultivation was during the war? I could not give 

 you the figures. 



11.093. Would you be surprised to learn it was 

 about a third of the figure I mentioned just now. 

 Suppose you were under no obligation as to minimum 

 wage, but perfectly free to get your labour on what 

 terms you could, would you still prefer the guaran- 

 teed prices of cereals, or prefer to be left alone? I 

 think at this stage it would be advisable to have the 

 guarantee in the meantime at least till things get 

 settled down ; that is to say, let us get through this 

 period with a degree of certainty. Of course we 

 know the minimum wage has had really no bearing 

 on the standard wage at the moment. 



11.094. Do you think a feeling of security would be 

 ensured if you got an assurance that agriculture is 

 not to be neglected P It would certainly be greatly 

 strengthened. 



11.095. Then your policy, in its essentials, is a war 

 policy? Yes, that is so. 



11.096. Suppose you were assured that there was no 

 possibility of any 'future war, would that make any 

 difference? That is an assurance I would have 

 doubts about. 



11.097. You are looking forward to the possibility 

 of future' wars ? I hope not ; but you never know. 



11.098. I think, Mr. Armour, you admitted a 

 moment or two ago that agriculture ought to be sub- 

 sidised because it is regarded as the breeding ground 

 of men for other industries? (Mr. Armour): It 

 ought to be made a paying proposition. If we can 

 make it pay without a subsidy, then certainly we do 

 not want a "subsidy ; but I think it will be lamentable 

 if agriculture is to fall into the state it was in in the 

 seventies and the eighties, and the agricultural 

 labourer comes down to such a small wage. I think 

 it would be most melancholy. 



11.099. You are not answering the question I put 

 to you. You advocate subsidising agriculture on this 

 specific ground, that you think agriculture ought to 

 breed men for other industries? I do not say 

 whether agriculture should have a subsidy or not. I 

 say it should be put on a basis on which it can be 

 worked at a profit to the benefit of the nation. You 

 can do it whichever way you like. 



11.100. Let us waive the word subsidy. You say 

 you want agriculture to be on such a firm basis one 

 way or the other, involving the expenditure of State 

 moneys, which is what it comes to, for the specific 

 purpose of breeding men for other industries? Yes. 

 . 11,101. What has been the tendency in your neigh- 

 bourhood? Have the men remained longer in the 

 industry, or do they go to other industries ? They 

 go to other industries, pretty frequently. 



11.102. For what reason? Bigger wages. 



11.103. And jou think agriculture should be put on 

 such a basis as to compete with these other indus- 

 tries? It ought to be. 



11.104. Mr. J. M. Henderson: I see in the third 

 paragraph of your precis you say: "I have prepared 

 a statement of the actual cost per acre of carrying 

 on my farm." How much of this statement is esti- 

 mate, and how much of it is actual expenditure? 



Chairman : The witness has explained that. 



11.105. Mr. J. M. Henderson: Then I will not ask 

 that. There is one matter I should like to ask a 



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