MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



23 September, 1919.] 



MR. H. G. HOWELL, F.C.A. 



[Continued. 



fically asked all the farmers to state what the value of 

 their own house accommodation is, the rent and the 

 rates. We have provided a space for that to be 

 stated, but in only a few cases has that information 

 been given. 



11.185. Also is any consideration given for the fact 

 of their being their own suppliers of food? There 

 again we have asked them to furnish the information, 

 so that, given the figures we could credit the farm 

 with an amount for that, but there again only a 

 small number have given information. 



11.186. I suppose when you are completing your 

 statements you found from these something in the 

 chape of a general average on which to charge? I 

 doubt if the numbers given would warrant that. 



11.187. Still something must be credited for the 

 farm house and the food? Ib should be, certainly. 



11.188. Mr. Green: Could you explain to us the 

 method you pursued in obtaining these accounts from 

 farmers? We circulated two schedules of which I 

 have given you two specimen copies. We sent an 

 accompanying letter with those schedules asking them 

 if they would send along a copy of their accounts 

 as they made them out, together with the two 

 schedules completed. 



11.189. What I really meant was, did you take tho 

 addresses of all the farmers of England, Wales and 

 Scotland and circularise them or how did you select 

 them? My instructions from the Commission were to 

 approach those farmers with whom we were in touch 

 as a Costing Committee, and only those, to furnish 

 us with this information. 



11.190. How did you get in touch with those? We 

 have been working during the last three or four 

 months and we have got to know a considerable 

 number of farmers, you see. 



11.191. I suppose those who offered to come forward 

 to give evidence before the Commission are what you 

 might call tho resident owners or owner occupiers? 

 I could not say that off-hand. 



11.192. With regard to Table F. of rent, wages 

 ami profits, I have been making some rough calcu- 

 lation* with regard to .your statement, and it 

 \\oik.s out in thia way, does it not: landlords uet 

 about 20 per cent, in rent, wages about 50 per cent., 

 and the farmer about 30 per cent, of the total? It 

 works out roughly according to those figures. 



11.193. Mr. Edwards: To my mind the most striking 

 thing is the great variation of the results in tho 

 Sottish farming compared with the English farming, 

 and the great difference in the results of the tenant 

 farmer and those of the owner occupier. I do not 

 know whether you can, from the accounts, give any 

 indication as to why there is this great difference. 

 Do the accounts from Scotland, for instance, indicate 

 any superior ability to keep accounts as compared 

 with the English accounts I mean as the result of 

 superior education? It is rather difficult for me to 

 answer that, but speaking quite generally, I should 

 say that the Scottish accounts were somewhat better 

 made out than the Knglish, taking them all over. 

 With regard to the disparity between the Scottish 

 results and tho-c of Rnglftnd and Wale-;, the chief 

 point I gather you had in mind was the amount of 

 capital per acre employed. 



11.194. Yes, and the profit per acre and tho rato 

 of interest. Everything is so much higher? The 

 capital per acre is very striking as regards 

 Scotland, but that is owing to tho fact that in tho 



go of those farms in Scotland there is a lot of 

 moor land and waste land included. Since sending in 

 the Interim Report I have, had a statement made out, 

 first including all the moorland and wasto land of 

 the Scotii.sh farms, and next another statement ox- 

 eluding that moorland and waste. The results of 

 excluding the moorland and wasto come very much 

 nearer tho English figures of capital per aero than 

 they did before. 



ll,l!)o. Chnirmnn: You art' going to send those to 

 f( 



11. lit*; Mi. Kilii-nrrl*: The rapital here is greater in 

 ml. It is 1"i 7s. 4d. :>n acre in Scotland, as 

 compared with" 12 3s. lOd. an acre in England and 

 Wales? YOB. 



25831 



11.197. That does not seem to agree with what you 

 say now? Not as regards tenant farmers. I was 

 speaking of the other two classes in Scotland. 



11.198. That is all I want to ask you, but I really 

 should wish myself to have some further information 

 on this point with regard to the fact that a tenant 

 Scottish farmer is able to make 3 2s. 7d. profit an 

 acre, whereas the English farmer is only able to 

 make 1 12s. lOd. profit. It seems to me to require 

 some explanation. The same thing exactly applies to 

 the occupying owners. The Scottish occupying owners 

 are only able to make 15s. profit an acre, as compared 

 with 3 2s. 7d. an acre of the Scottish tenant farmers. 

 That seems to me to be remarkable? There again you 

 get this moorland figure throwing you out. The occu- 

 pying owners' farms include a lot of moorland, where- 

 as in the case of the tenant farmers there is practi- 

 cally no moorland at all. 



11.199. Mr. Cautley: In the middle of paragraph 6 

 you say: " The number of accounts here dealt with is 

 extremely small compared with the number of holdings 

 in the country, and it is not possible to say, from these 

 limited figures, whether the results shown are typical 

 of the industry generally." That is your considered 

 report, I understand ? Yes. 



11.200. You regard, therefore, any deductions drawn 

 from this inquiry into the 455 cases as inconclusive? 

 Yes. 



11.201. Taking them as far as they go, would you 

 tell me how many farmers you asked to send" in 

 accounts in order to obtain the 455 returns? Just 

 over 1,000. 



11.202. So that you got returns from about half 

 the number? Yes. 



11.203. Were those 1,000 the whole of the farmers 

 with whom you have been brought into contact 

 through the Costings Committee? Yes. 



11.204. How did you get originally into communica- 

 tion with those 1,000 ? We have taken certain steps 

 to make our existence known to the industry gener- 

 ally. 



11.205. By advertisement? By advertisement and 

 by circularising selected lists of farmers which we 

 obtained from various sources, and the farmers' or- 

 ganisations and other sources. 



11.206. Were a considerable proportion of the lists 

 supplied by tho farmers' organisations? Not a "con- 

 siderable proportion. 



11.207. A small percentage? No, I should say tho 

 majority would have been supplied by farmers' or- 

 ganisations. 



11.208. I should call tho majority a considerable 

 proportion? You did get the majority of them 

 through farmers' organisations they gave you the 

 names of farmers to apply to? Yes. 



11.209. And the rest of them? We got them from 

 all sorts of sources. I do not think I can remember 

 quite whom we tapped for these others, but in addi- 

 tion to these names we have had from farmers' 

 organisations and other sources, we have also had a 

 number of press notices from time to time explaining 

 our objects and so on, which were addressed to tho 

 whole industry. 



1 l.iilu. Were Mime of thorn volunteered from people 

 who rend the advertisements? I am unable to nay 

 from what sources these farmers came, whether they 

 read the press notices or whether they had anv par- 

 ticular circulars, but, at any rate-, we have taken 

 ample means to get the ear of the industry generally 

 as to our existence. 



11.211. Out of tho 45o vou reduce them to 304? 

 Yes. 



11.212. Mr. Parker was asking you what I think 

 is a most important point, and I am going to pursue 

 it a little further, that is about the amount of 

 profit shown? Yes. 



11.213. As I understand, taking page 3, Schedule 

 A, it shows the tablet of information that you re- 

 quired which you sent out to each of the 304 farmers 

 you issue there the details that you want from tho 

 farmer of his income or his receipts, and also, on tha 

 other side, of his expenditure or payments? Yes. 



11.214. Did they fill that up?- -In very few eases 

 they filled up this page. In the great majority of 

 cases they sent us, as wo meant them to do, a copy 



