MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



83 



23 September, 1919.] 



ME. JAMES DONALDSON. 



[Continued. 







11.499. My question was with regard to the present 

 prices as fixed under the Defence of the Realm Act? 



Those for last year would be inadequate, in 

 my opinion, to pay the present wages and the present 



hours; but we are getting a certain benefit from a 

 free market at the present moment. 



11.500. By that, you mean that barley is sold at 

 100s. a quarter? From 90s. up to 100s. We do not 

 know how long that will be. My experience of the 

 barley market has been that it drops perhaps 5s. 

 to-morrow. There is nothing drops quicker than 

 barley. 



11.501. I understand from your statement you take 

 the view that competition from abroad will very soon 

 begin again!' 1 think there is no doubt about it. 



11.502. I am sure of it myself. I will just put the 

 question again. I think I ought to have limited my 

 question to the minimum prices as fixed under the 

 Defence of the Realm Act, that they are not sufficient? 

 Yes, you were leaving out the factor of the free 

 market. 



11.503. I am asking you for next year now, what 

 your view is as to what those prices ought to be? I 

 should certainly say minimum prices ought to be 

 higher for next year, in view of our having decreasing 

 hours worked by the labourers, which will mean in- 

 crease of cost. Then again, you are having increases 

 of rent taking place. That will come into operation 

 on a good many farms next year. Then the rates will 

 be a great deal higher next year ; and there are many 

 other factors to be taken into consideration. In my 

 own country the rates have gone up something like 

 Is. 6d. in the . 



11.504. You see you have made a statement in 

 answer to a Commissioner, that the wages were 

 about 40 per cent, of your outgoings. Would 40 per 

 cent, be the minimum? No, that is with us an aver- 

 age. It will be less, or more, in different cases. 

 Different circumstances will alter the facts un- 

 doubtedly. 



11.505. Would the rent be about 66 per cent.? I 

 have cases of rent being raised 60 per cent. 



11.506. I mean 66 per cent, of the cost? No. I 

 thought you wore speaking of the rise of rent. 



11.507. No. I was trying to pet at the proportion of 

 the cost? That would all depend oji the type of soil. 



11.508. You have not worked that out at all? No; 

 I think if you put that question to Mr. Wyllie he will 

 answer it. You will find it will vary in different 

 oases. 



11.509. We had better get from Mr. Wyllie any 

 information with regard to costs? Yes. 



11. 510. Has your Union considered any other way 

 at all of meeting the present conditions except by a 

 guarantee of wages? No. There you are touching on 

 policy, and wo are reserving our policy. I really must 

 *ay. my instructions are not to answer anything 

 dealing with policy. 



11.511. When are we likely to have the further 

 views of .the National Farmers' Union?- When you 

 nik them. Wo are dealing with, first of all, ooste. 

 then results, then will come policy. We have confined 

 ourselves to costs to-day. 



11.512. Mr. Jlunran: I would like to take you back 

 to paragraph 7. the sentence Mr. Ashby asked you 

 some questions about. You say: " At the present 

 time farming is being carried out intensively." Do 

 I take it your view is, that at the present time the 

 last possible bushel of wheat. <fec., is being produced 

 from the farms? As intensively as present circum- 

 stamvw will permit. 



11.513. You do' not qualify that statement in any 

 way by the difference in skill or knowledge on the 

 part of the farmer? Undoubtedly you must take the 

 skill and knowledge of the farmer. If you take manu- 

 facturing industries, you do not get two manufac- 

 turers with the same skill and knowledge. You find 

 one factory carried on at great advantage, and an- 

 other carried on perhaps at a loss. It does not alone 

 apply to farmers. 



11.514. So that when you say, as present circum- 

 '.t.anrofl will permit, you are allowing for defective 



knowledge of a portion of the farmers?- You must 

 do that, and T think you must in all industries. 



11.515. Do you think there is any possibility of 

 improvement in that direction by better education 



25831 



and better training of the farmers:' I should not like 

 to say that the farmers were so hopeless as not to be 

 improved. 



11.516. From your own experience, do you think 

 there is a possibility of improving production in that 

 direction without increasing costP There might be a 

 little, not much. 



11.517. You do not think there is much in it? 



There is not much in it. 



11.518. Do you think there is anything possible by 

 an improvement in the class of labour? What do you 

 mean by that; 1 



11.519. Is there any possibility of improving the 

 output of your workers without necessarily increasing 

 your costs beyond what they are now? My own 

 theory has always been that if you pay a man well 

 and treat him well, you are going to get a better 

 return from that man than if you underpay him and 

 treat him badly. 



11.520. So that in that direction it might be possi- 

 ble, without increasing the costs, to prevent the re- 

 duction of your output? Not much, I think. I want 

 to explain a moment. The farmer comes into direct 

 contact with his labour, and he knows that labour. 

 He is not in the position of a great manufacturer 

 who does not see his labour. He is intimately 

 acquainted with each labourer and he knows his capa- 

 city. It is a different thing with regard to a factory. 



11.521. Have you any experience of the comparative 

 output per man in the districts where higher wages 

 have been paid, with those in the counties you are 



referring to now? I have only farmed in Oxford- 

 shire, and formerly I farmed in Lanarkshire, 



where of course we work longer hours and we pay 



bigger wages. 



11.522. Was there any difference in the skill and 

 capacity of the workers? I can only argue from the 

 Scotch versus the English side ; and the Scotch work- 

 ers, taken as a whole, are more educated men. 



11.523. Take it in all directions. Is there not a 

 possibility by better education of the worker of se- 

 curing a better output without necessarily increasing 

 the cost? There is a possibility by raising his status; 

 that is, if you raise his mind so that ho will s-oe it is 

 not to the advantage of himself, his employers or 

 others .to slack for instance. 



11.524. Does the same thing not hold good with an 

 improvement in the education of the farmer? I have 

 already answered that, that I think the farmer is 

 capable of improvement. 



11.525. Do you think that the statement you make 

 in the first sentence in paragraph 8 can stand with- 

 out qualification? You say: " The remedy for low 

 prices is the reduction of costs and the reduction of 

 output"? That is my considered opinion. 



11.526. Is there any necessary connection between 

 the reduction of costs and the reduction of output? 

 Yes. If you reduce costs, there is no doubt about it 

 you are not going to get the same output. 



11.527. You are prepared to make that an axiom? 

 T do not think you will get it without. 



11.528. Mr. Edwards: As a farmer who has 

 weathered the storm, you refer to here, this sentence 

 you have just dealt with : " The remedy for low prices 

 is the reduction of cost and the reduction of out- 

 put," seems somewhat strange in my experience. You 

 seem to base that really on this law of diminishing 

 returns. I presume you will admit that in order.that 

 this law should become effective, you must assume 

 other things remaining the same? I do not quite 

 gather the question. Will you please repeat it? 



11.529. I presume you will agree with me that in 

 this law of diminishing returns when you are refer- 

 ring to one matter, say manuring, or cost of labour, 

 you must assume also that the other things remain 

 the same? Are you referring to prices? 



11.530. No, I am speaking of output? If you do 

 not apply fertilisers it is a certain thing that you 

 are not going to get so much return ; but there is a 

 time when the law of diminishing returns does apply, 

 and you cannot get away from it. 



11.531. Quite right; but take the question of pota- 

 toes, for instance. You remember very well about 

 1894 the variety " Up-to-Date " was introduced? I 

 am not a potato grower, but perhaps I will be able 

 to answer your question. 



F 2 



