MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



105 



24 September, 1919.] 



MR. JAMES WYLLIE. 



[Continued. 



be fed whether they are working or not; that is the 

 unfortunate thing. 



12.132. They must, but from these estimates of 

 cost one would think that there was no difference 

 iii the ration. That is the impression one gets. 

 Farmers in making an estimate of cost always set 

 down the ration, never allowing for the fact that 

 they are losing a large number of days' work. Some- 

 times they are only working their horses eight or 

 nine or ten days a month, and yet presumably they 

 are getting the same ration although one knows that 

 they are not:-' In many cases in practice they do. 



12.133. Feed the same ration when the horse is 



only working 10 days a month instead of 24? Not 



exactly the same, but the d< crease is very slight. 



12.134. Do you not think that is one of the points 

 in which there would be a great difference between 

 estimates and records.' No, 1 do not. 



12.135. These rates sometimes interest me. Will 

 you look at Farm No. 43.* In Essex the rate is 4s. in 

 the . Do you know what part of Essex this refers 

 to? That is somewhere about the Chelmsford district. 



12.136. Did you ever take the trouble to ask these 

 people for their demand note or anything? In a 

 great many cases I actually saw the demand notes. 



12.137. They always agreed, did they? Yes. I 

 may say that is one of the surprises I have had in 

 going round England, to find that the rates are so 

 high. 



J2,l:>. Mi. iJiinrim: Will you look at Farm No. 3.* 

 There is an item there with regard to which I 

 should like to get some information. You notice 

 in the account for horse labour there is an item: 

 " Risk, -Ji per cent, on 100, 4 10s.' 1 What is 

 that item meant to cover? I take it that in this 

 particular case the farmer was not insuring his 

 horses, but he thought he was entitled to put in some- 

 thing as an allowance against an occasional horse 

 dying, that being over and above his allowance 

 for depreciation. 



12.139. What would the insurance rate on horses 

 be? I think it is about 8 per cent, at the present 

 time, or 8 10s. per cent. 



12.140. I notice in some of the other accounts 

 insurance is put at a very small item? In most 



I think you will find that insurance on horses 

 has been left out altogether. 



12.141. For instance, if you look at Horse Labour 

 No. :j. farm No. <>,* insurance is .-ntcrod at 7s. Cd. 



i:orsc of 100 value?! do not quite follow that 



item of 7s. 6d. It seems to me a very low charge if 



.you arc going to make a charge at all for insurance. 



12.142. Going back to Farm No. 3,* to this item, do 

 you think it is a fair allowance after allowing 10 

 per cent, for depreciation to charge another 4 10s. 

 per annum on each horse? That again was this parti- 

 cular farmer's view. As I explained yesterday this 

 particular farmer is a man who has had a very ex- 

 tensive college training, and he considers that he 

 in fairly well qualified to make up costs of this kind. 

 Naturally I was forced to defer to a certain extent 

 to his own opinion. Personally I think it was quite 

 a legitimate charge to make, but it is an open ques- 

 tion as to whether a total charge of 14J per cent for 

 depreciation and risk is not rather high. 



12.143. In that connection you stated yesterday that 

 in some cases you had got the farmers to modify their 

 figures to meet what you thought was right. To what 

 extent has that modification taken place? In most 

 cases the figures were modified as I suggested, but in 

 certain cases the farmers were rather inclined to take 

 thfir own line. 



12.144. Is this statement presented to us as simply 

 the material collected, or is it the material after 

 collection and sifting? It has been collected and 

 gifted. 



12.145. In some cases the sifting has been effected, 

 and in other cases it is simply presented as collected? 

 In a few cases it is presented as collected. 



12.146. The whole of this material has not passed 

 through the hands of those who are sifting it? It has 



.proved I would like to put it in that way. 



1 2.147. It riH-fiiiN this; that when) an item app< 

 and the fanner submitting the Kt.;it<>ment is not pre 

 pared tc, meet what you think is right, you simply 

 "end it forward as h<< pute it down? Yes. 



12.148. So that it .cannot be said that the whole 

 of this material has been completely through your 

 hands or the hands of your Committee, and that it is 

 submitted as approved material? I think you can 

 say, with one or two small exceptions, such as the case 

 of aftermath, that it has been approved. You get 

 exceptions to everything, and you certainly get an 

 exception in that case, but I would not like to say 

 in every case. 



12.149. Turn to Farm No. 9,* I think you stated in 

 reply to Mr. Ashby that your method of charging 

 interest was to charge 5 per cent, on the fixed capital, 

 and then to charge 5 per cent, on half the cost? Iri 

 the majority of cases that was done. In some cases 1 

 said we charged 5 per cent, on the total capital per 

 acre uniformly over the crops. 



12.150. If you take this farm No. 9, I think 

 you will find there the interest on the capital 

 charged through the accounts against the various 

 crops, is on the total cost per acre? Yes. You will 

 find that no charge has been made for interest on 

 horses or on machinery, or other fixed capital ; that is 

 the alternative method which has been adopted in 

 this case. 



12.151. Is there any way in which we tan find out 

 what the effect of this is on the total farming opera- 

 tions for the year how much the interest really comes 

 to on a farm of a certain size, and some information 

 as to what the actual capital employed in it is? In 

 this particular case of Farm No. 9, the capital per 

 acre was put at 18. The farmer who is responsible 

 for this statement is an experienced valuer, and he 

 says that at the present time the capital per acre in 

 farms in this district, runs from anything from 18 

 up to 20 per acre. In this case, if you charge 5 per 

 cent, on 18 per acre, it comes to 270. We have 

 charged 5 per cent, on 16 per acre against the crops ; 

 we have charged a little against the sheep, and a 

 little against the cattle. The total charge which we 

 have made in these accounts is 269, compared with 

 the 270 which you get by charging 5 per cent, on 18 

 capital per acre. 



12.152. Is there 18 per acre actually in the farm? 

 Has the 'farmer actually got that amount of capital in 

 his farm? I am told he has at the present time. 



12.153. You have no evidence from his books, to find 

 out whether he has the amount of capital employed 

 or not? I would not like to say that we have in this 

 case. 



12.154. Have you actual evidence in all the cases 

 which you have sifted to find out what the charge on 

 capital is? Not in all cases. 



12.155. So that you have simply estimate*! what a 

 man might employ in his farm if he had it capitalised 

 according to the acreage of the district? Yes what 

 he says he has employed at the present time. 



12.156. So that you give the farmer credit for 

 management at a certain figure and then you allow 

 him interest not on his actual capital, but on what 

 he says he has employed in his farm? I am quite 

 sure he does not overestimate it. 



12.157. I submit to you if we are trying to get at 

 the facts of the costs of production we ought to get 

 at it upon actual figures. However great one's faith 

 may be in one's fellow creatures you cannot base 

 statistics upon faith? I am afraid you cannot get 

 away in making farm costings from relying upon your 

 fellow creatures. 



12.158. Then I take it that these figures are not 

 submitted as actual figures but as your own. estimate 

 of the farmers' reliability in regard to the statements 

 he has given you? I think I may say generally they 

 are as reliable statements on costs as it is possible to 

 get under present conditions. 



12.159. That of course is not a certificate as to their 

 reliability? You can take it any way you please. 



12.160. Tiikr jour introductory statement in para- 

 graph (i of your evidence-in-chief. Yoii are dealing 

 there with tha selection of the farmers that has 

 been made. You say : The statements have 

 been taken from individual farmers farming 

 holdings of various sizes and of various grades 

 of land, and the question at once arises how 

 far they can be taken as representative of the costs 

 for the whole country. Upon this point the Union K 

 of opinion that the evidence has been obtained mainly 



* See Appendix IV. 



