106 



lioVAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTTKI.. 



24 StpHmktr, 1919.] 



MR. JAMBS WTLLIE. 



[Contiitued. 



from the better and more skilled class of farmers." 

 Hat the I'nion formed any opinion as to the class of 

 land that theso farmers are farming whether they 

 are typical farms so far as situation and class of land 

 is concerned, and so on? I think generally speak- 

 ing one can say they are typical of the different dis- 

 trict*, but you can well understand that in the short 

 time that we had it was impossible to get a sufficient 

 number of farms in the different districts to bring 

 oat all the different types. I think, however, you 

 can take it that the farms are typical of the districts 

 to certain extent at least. 



12.161. Are they up to the average, or would you 

 say they are of poorer quality of land? I would not 

 like to say that they are the poorer quality at all, 

 taking them all over; I do not think that would bo 

 fair. 



12.162. You have no statement to make as to how 

 they compare in that way? You see my difficulty: 

 I have not had an opportunity of going over the 

 different districts and making a comparison. Again I 

 had to rely upon the farmers' own statements as to 

 whether their farms were typical or not. 



12.163. Will you look at" 1'art B? Just take the 

 costs of the 1919 crop. I think you will find that the 

 medium cost works out at about 78s. a quarter. What 

 is the selling price for the 1919 crop? I take it it 

 is round about 75s. 6d., is it not? 



12.164. So that your farmer here who is working 

 at the medium cost is producing at 2s. 6d. loss per 

 quarter? I suppose it amounts to that. 



12.165. One half of the instances you give are pro- 

 ducing at a greater loss than 2s. 6d. a quarter ? Yes. 



12.166. Do you think it is typical of English farm- 

 ing that wheat production has been carried on at a 

 loss during this year and last rear, 1918? I should 

 say that during 1919 that would be true. 



12.167. Take 1918. I think you will find the medium 

 there runs about 71s. What was the selling price in 

 1918? Was it not pretty much the same? 



12.168. Yes, but do you think that is typical of 

 English farming during 1918? As I have already 

 said, it is very difficult for me or for any other person 

 to say how far these few cases because after all they 

 are very few represent the whole. 



12,1(39. Yes, but you put these forward as farmers 

 who are skilled above tho average, and we may 

 therefore take it. that if they are skilled above the 

 average, unless they are working on unsuitable land 

 for their cultivation they aro producing at a less cost 

 than the average English farmer is doing? Yes. 



12.170. Yet when we test it by your figures we find 

 as regards wheat production even in the case of skilled 

 farmers one half of them are producing wheat at a 

 loss?- -That is the conclusion to which one is forced. 



12.171. Are these farmers paying income tax on 

 double their rent? I could not say whether these 

 particular farmers are doing that or not. 



12.172. Farmer* generally are less skilled, as you 

 have admitted, than the farmers who have submitted 

 these figures to you. Do you think that there aro 

 English farmers who are losing to the extent that 

 these figures show, and who are still paying income 

 tax on their double rent? . I should say there are as 



<lo not keep accounts. I hope you will bear in 

 mind that for income tax purposes there will be no 

 deduction in those cases for interest and management, 

 and if you make no deduction for interest or f-" 

 management your cost per quarter of course would 

 go down. 



12.173. It would go down to that extent?- Yes. 



12.174. Do the Farmers' 1'nion want us to accept. 

 from these figures that during the year 1!>10 in tho 

 ra of skilled farmers above the average working on 



il farms half of them aro losing money and all 

 they are. getting is simply an allowance for manage- 

 ment and interest on their capital? Is that what the 

 Farmers' Vnion want 11.1 to acrnp t ? I would not like 

 to take the responsibility of saying wha' the Farmers' 



i think, but that in certainly what I think 

 mvwlf. 



12.175. That is what you think from this evidence? 



12,l"o. One qnesiion on this point of management. 

 Yon allow 300 for management on a 300 acre farm. 



Are managers being paid at tii.it figure at the present 

 tin i-.- 1 think you uill luul if \ou allow for all the 

 perquisites which the farm manager usually gets, that 

 on a 300 acre mixed farm his salary is round about 

 300 per annum. 



12.177. Have you any actual cases? It sound* 

 rather vague to say allowing fur all the perquisites. 

 'I'll. it is usually the way of avoiding gutting to the 

 .; i 'ial wages that are paid by saying there is u hup- 

 allowance for perquisites? I do not put it in that 

 way at all. 



12.178. If I put it to you that in Scotland on ,i 

 farm of that size 200 and house accommodation 

 is a i .unmon ligure to pay for a manager l> 

 operative agricultural institutions, and such like 

 bodies, what would you say? I would not like to 

 take that figure of 200. 1 have not very many cases 

 in my own mind, but I should be inclined to put it 

 a little bit higher than 200 a year. 



12.179. I am putting to you ^a figure which w a.s 

 actually advertised in the papers last week by one 

 of these co-operative institutions? That is only one 

 case. 



12.180. Yes, but it is the case in one of tho In >t 

 paid agricultural counties ,in Scotland?- I will take 

 it from you. 



12.181. Mr. EduwJt: Arising out of the questions 

 already put to you, you say you taki the dwelling 

 house as a personal couc.eru of the farmer. Would 

 you say the same thing of a farmhouse which is 



for preparing the meals for the men and sleeping 

 accommodation for the nun. and living room for the 

 men. which to a certain extent is part and parcel ot 

 the wages of the men? I should say in that case you 

 must make allowance for it and charge a correspond 

 ingly less sum against the farmer himself. 



12.182. You spoke about insurance for horses. It 

 lias struck ine during the conversations and discus- 

 sions here as to the piacticahility of farmers insuring 

 against losses of live stock and against los . 



bad harvest, <tc.. and I should like to have your view 

 as an vx]H*i-t on liuu ]>. i'it. I pn -u;:r.' that to a 

 certain extent in other Imsinesso.s the principle of 

 insurance applies? Take the shipping hiisiiu - 

 ship leaves Liverpool or any other port, and both 

 the ship and the cargo in it are insured against the 

 risk of the voyage. The cost of that 1 jircMiine is 

 taken out of the profit of the people handling the 

 business? It has struck me whether it would not be 

 a legitimate charge if I were to insure all my risks 

 in that way before taking any profit out of my farm? . 



J should consider it would bo quite a legitimate 

 charge if it were done, but whether it is a legitimate 

 charge where the actual insurance is not paid is a 

 debatable point. 



12.183. Coming back to our business here, which, as 

 you are well aware, is to find out the economic posi- 

 tion of agriculture at the present moment, and to 

 arrive at some, idea of its economic jxisition in the 

 future, I should like to have your view as a costings 

 expert as to whether you think that this method whuh 

 vou follow here to a very great extent and which if 

 followed by other people from whom we have had heap? 

 of these accounts and estimates dealing with agricul- 

 ture in sort of watirti-ht compartments ciop by 

 crop in this \\a\ is. in >our opinion a sound one to 

 lead us to tin- right conclusion: On that, point I 

 find very great difficulty. AH one who has had some. 

 experience' in costing-. I ha\e DOOM to the conrlu-ion 

 in fact. I have always held the opinion that tho 

 proper unit for taking out crop costing- il the rota- 

 tion of crops rather than tho individual crop-. Hut 

 for this particular \oar. if then- i. to he an\ question 

 of fixing prices in an\ .shape or form, it seems neces- 

 sary to attempt to take out tho crops by themselves 

 apart from taking the rotation a*, a unit and to take, 

 the individual crop as the unit. Ft is an extremely 

 difficult thing to say exactly what proportion of the 

 total crv.t of rotation should Vie put againsf one crop 

 and whnt proportion should he put against another 

 crop. 



I'J.IM. It appears to be taken for granted that tho 

 first step in our inquiry is to find out Mime figures 

 upon which the (iovcrnmcnt can fix a guaranteed mini- 

 mum for the next year or two. I have tried my best 



