MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



21 



f- August, 1919.] 



SIR DANIEL HALL, K.C.B., F.R.8. 



[Continued. 



go there? He would go just as often as his business 

 demanded it. It is quite possible that with a 

 big business you might do away with the attendance 

 at the small markets. 



409. You mentioned that nothing had been given 

 the farmer during the war; but as a result of the 

 restrictions much had been taken from him. Is it 

 true to say that the farmer has been taxed in the 

 same way as other industries? Has the taxation he 

 has had to bear been the same as that of other 

 industries? No; he has not been carrying any 

 excess profits. 



410. Mr. Walker : May we take it that so far as 

 you are personally concerned you do not favour a 

 sliding scale as to wages such as has been referred 

 to this evening? As to a sliding scale between wages 

 and guarantees I find difficulties. 



411. And you personally do not favour it? 



Personally, no. 



412. And you cannot, of course, commit the Board? 

 Certainly not, because ,the Board has not got an 

 opinion as yet on that point. I mean, our only 

 opinion is that it is extraordinarily difficult to see 

 how you could calculate such a thing. It is really 

 one of the questions the Board asks this Commission 

 to explore for them. 



413. So far as the present guarantees are concerned, 

 is it not a fact that some conference or arrangement 

 was entered into just prior to the introduction of the 

 Bill, and that reference was made to this kind of 

 bargain, whatever it was, on the floor of the House 

 itself; and that when the position was challenged 

 as to where the agricultural worker came in, con- 

 sidering he was in the Bill to a certain extent, there 

 was no reply, but the statement was definitely made 

 that there' was an arrangement of some sort so far 

 as the real guarantee was concerned. Is not that a 

 fact?- -Whether there were statements made 



414. On behalf of the Government? I do not think 



80. 



415. Hansard will prove it? It is 2$ strenuous 

 years ago ; and aU I am clear about is that no bargain 

 was made between any party representing the 

 farmers say the National Farmersr' Union and 

 the Board of Agriculture, representing the Govern- 

 ment. 



416. My point was that so far as any bargaining 

 was concerned, if there was a bargain struck between 

 the farmers on the one hand and the Board on the 

 other, they got something as the result of that 

 bargain that evidently was agreed to. That is why 

 I refer to the matter. We understand clearly that 

 there is no attempt to correlate the wage fixed under 

 the Corn Production Act with tho guaranteed price 

 given to the farmers under the Bill at the present 

 moment? No. 



417. No attempt whatsoever. Is it the decided 

 policy of the Government or tho Board of Agriculture 

 that there must be guarantees under certain circum- 

 stances? Yes; we believe that if we are to maintain 

 the position of a minimum rate of wage, which must 

 be paid, you must give a corresponding security to 

 the farmer. 



418. lhat ta the decided policy of the Board? 

 Yes. 



419. In your main evidence, in paragraph 6, is 

 there not just too much connection here between 

 wages and prices? I would like you to explain that 

 further? Do you mean where I say that the State 

 has no basis of principle on which it can determine 

 what wages ought to be, or what prices ought to be? 



420. Yes? That is our position, as it were: that 

 we are not prepared to say that wages ought to be 

 3 a week, or 5 a week. We are prepared 

 to say they ought not to be below 25s. a 

 week, and to that extent we are prepared to go 

 against 1 a week. But what we mean to say is 

 that we do not see a logical basis for stopping at 3, 

 5, 10, or anything: that there is no basis of 

 principle. In the same way we see very great 

 difficulties, difficulties that are almost insuperable as 



2512.-> 



long as you maintain our present system, of 

 saying that wheat ought to be sold off the farm at 

 60s., 70s., 80s., or any fixed price. All through this 

 war, and this price-fixing time, we have seen the 

 very great difficulties and inequalities (that result 

 from fixing prices at which things have to be bought 

 and sold ; and so we want to see a play of the market 

 in these prices. But we want to provide, as I say, a 

 security that the play of market shall not ruin the 

 farmer or, of course, throw labour out of employment. 



421. During the passage of the Corn Production 

 Bill, you will admit, I suppose, it is a fact that 

 Lord Ernie emphasised the fact on more than one 

 occasion that the 25s. was a minimum? Yes, it is. 



422. And that it was left to the workers, through 

 their organisations and otherwise, to bargain 

 collectively to raise that minimum? Yes. 



423. So it was there anticipated that that 

 minimum might be raised; and as a matter of fact 

 at that time, as you have already stated^ there 

 were many districts paying more than that? 

 Certainly. 



424. And as far as the minimums at the present 

 moment are concerned, up and down the country 

 the minimums fixed by the Wages Board are ex- 

 ceeded. I suppose .you would admit that? Of 

 course, we know that a great many wages are above 

 the present minimum. 



425. So far as unremunerative farming is con- 

 cerned, could you give us your view briefly as to 

 why that is so in some cases? [ hare in my mind, 

 for example, threo points efficiency, intensive culti- 

 vation, and the question of transit? Are you 

 speaking of individual farmers or of farming 

 groups? 



426. I am speaking generally; because you 

 generally get the statement that farming is 

 unremunerative, and thore might be a cause. It 

 is to find out that ciuse. I have mentioned three 

 points that I would like your views upon, parti- 

 cularly transit? [ do not think in tho hands of the 

 reasonably skilful men farming has been unre- 

 munerative of late. 1 do not think it was 

 immediately before the war. It is that time one 

 had better go back to in one's mind. Farming 

 was earning a reasonable rate of remuneration then. 

 It was not as good in certain districts as it ought 

 to be, or in certain individuals. I would not like 

 to speak of individuals, because we know p.ll men 

 are not equal in their performances, and so forth. 

 You cannot expect an equal level of eificienc}'. But 

 one certainly saw certain districts where one thought 

 tho type of farming might be improved, and that 

 the general method followed was not what the 

 best farmers would carry out. Wo believe there 

 are improvements of that kind possible at the 

 present time; and our whole educational campaign 

 which we are intensifying very considerably, 

 is directed towards the improvement of farming 

 from thnt point of view, by administration and by 

 education and persuasion to show men that there 

 are improvements possible. But we do say that at 

 the bade of all this educational effort you must give 

 the farmer a sort of feeling that he has 

 embarked on a reasonably secure line of business 

 that is not going to be upset by some cause entirely 

 outside his own control. I speak now as a man who 

 began to teach in connection with farming in 1892. , 

 When I first came amongst farmers teaching, I found 

 the difficulty one used to meet was this. They said : 



" I have had such a knock-out. Prices are going 

 down year by year. I have lost money. I see so-and- 

 so ruined on every side. You must not ask me to try 

 experiments, or to try any of these new things, or to 

 spend much money. The only safety is to sit tight 

 and to reduce my outgoings." Now nothing did 

 more harm or made it more difficult to anybody like 

 myself trying to teach the application of science and 

 improved methods than this feeling that people were 

 living upon tho edge of a precipice which might 

 crumble under them at any moment. You never 

 know what next year's prices were going to be. We 



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