KOYAI. COMMISSION ON AGUICULTUBB. 



1919.] 



SIR HENRY UKW, K.C.B. 



[(','iitinued. 



652. Yes, before the war and during the war? 

 Tea; on tin- h..l.- the average yield per acre of . 

 crops has increased in the last 30 years or so. 



663. And the same may be true of the animal pro- 

 ducts like beef, mutton and dairy produce? 1 1 is 

 extremely difficult to measure it; but of course tin- 

 total niiintxT of cuttle has increased, and I think it 

 is evident thaUthe output of meat from a given num- 

 ber of cattle, returned once a year, has also increased. 

 I am not speaking, of course, of the very exceptional 

 conditions of the lost year or so ; but, broadly speak- 

 ing, the number of cattle returned on the 4th June 

 represents now, under ordinary conditions, a bigger 

 output of meat than it did, we will say, 30 years ago. 

 I might add that the same, in my opinion, anil there 

 is evidence to show it, applies to milk. In that case 

 there is a certain amount of evidence. The number 

 of cows of course has increased, but it has not 

 increased proportionately to the increase of the popu- 

 lation. I could give you the figures if you wish. 

 The number of cows has maintained a supply to meet 

 the total demand of milk in this country; that is to 

 say, we do not import, notwithstanding the growing 

 population. Therefore, as the consumption of milk 

 per head of the population has certainly not 

 decreased, but has probably increased within the last 

 30 years or so, it is clear that the output of milk 

 per cow from the farms of this country must have 

 increased substantially. 



554. You said, in answer to a question, that it is 

 generally considered that agriculture is under-capi- 

 talised. Do you mean capital in the hands of the 

 farmer, the operator; or the capital, taking both the 

 landowner and the farmer together? I was speaking 

 entirely of the tenant farmer's capital; the working 

 capital of the farmer. 



555. Bearing in view the revolution which is prac- 

 tically taking place in this country at the present 

 moment, that is, laud passing into the hands of the 

 operator, what effect will that have on the working 

 capital of the farming community? The effect will 

 In- that a man with a given amount of capital can 

 only take less land. 



556. That means that the actual operator will be 

 handicapped by the present revolution which is taking 

 place in this country? It does not necessarily amount 

 to that. It depends upon the relative profit from a 

 certain number of acres. It may bo that a man 

 who, we will say, for example, before the war employed 

 10 an acre, might have taken a 500-acro farm, 

 will now only be able to take a 250-acre form. But 

 whether he will be better or worse off with it is 

 a matter of opinion. 



557. I am referring to this point. It is generally 

 taken that the landowner in this country provides the 

 capital in the shape of land, and the tenant pro- 

 vides the working capital. Now the change which is 

 taking place in this country puts the burden of 

 providing the capital in res|>ect of the land, and 

 also the working capital of the farm, on one and 

 the same person? You mean if he buys his farm!- 



558. Yes, which they are doing; and if they are 

 under-capitalised now, surely they will be more 

 under-capitalised in the future. That is the point 1 

 am driving at? I think that is so in the case of the 

 man who buys his farm at present prices. 



569. Mr. Duncan : I think you made the statement 

 that labour cost on farms where high wages were paid 

 was not necessarily greater than the labour cost in 

 those districts where lower wages were paid. Have 

 you any data on that point? I have not here or in 

 my memory ; but from time to time I have looked 

 into that question, and I think as a general very 

 rough statement H can bo supported. I am speaking, 

 of course, of before the war. 



660. 80 that there is no necessary relation between 

 the prices of agricultural produce and the wages paid ? 



Tt depends what you moan by the word " necessary." 

 In the long run there must bo a relation, I think ; 

 but if you say that looking bark on the past you 

 cannot trace any close relation bet we. n pii.-cs and 

 wages, I agree. 



661. Do the Board get any information as to the 

 rate of wages <to be paid in the \:ui..us .1 Mricte in 

 Knglund and Wah*:- No. Some information ha-. 

 been collectisl in the past, at one tinn> liv tin- l..il...m 

 Department of tin li'.n.l of Trade; Imt it has not 

 In en drought up to duto; ahe latest information on 

 the subject is contained in that report to which I 

 h.ive already directed your attention on the Mag.--; 

 and conditions of employment. 



5C2. Do your crop reamers make any report from 

 time to time as to changes of wages? No; wo have 

 not asked them to do so up to now. We do ask them 

 general questions with regard to the supply of labour 

 and the position of labour. 



563. So that the Board hayc no information as to 

 wages over any period? No; the Board themselves 

 have no information, except by reference to returns 

 collected by other Departments. 



564. Coming to your work on the Wages Board, as 

 a matter of actual practice the wages are being fixed. 

 Have those wages been fixed in relation to the prices 

 of farm produce? Undoubtedly the. prices of farm 

 produce have been one of the elements taken into 

 account by the Wages Board in fixing prices. 



565. And, as a matter of practice, has the minimum 

 rate boon fixed in relation to the prices of produce :- 

 It is a difficult question to answer, and it is a specially 

 difficult question for me to answer. There are 



bers of the Wages Board sitting round this table, as 

 you are aware; and the exact arguments which they 

 advanced in support of or in discussing the particular 

 rate of wages, of course, took into consideration the 

 question of prices, but took into account other mattei- 

 as well. It is very difficult for me to sum up the 

 reasons which swayed them in arriving at a particular 

 decision. I am only a thirty-ninth part of the Hoard. 



566. May I put it in this way then, that your 

 Wages Board fixed a minimum rate first at the begin- 

 ning of this war and has since increased that mini- 

 mum rate? Yes. 



567. Was the application for the increase based on 

 the prices of agricultural produce or on the cost of 

 living? I think on both; I should say predominantly 

 on the cost of living. 



568. Have the Board any information as to the 

 prices at which agricultural land has been selling 

 within the last 12 months? I cannot say we have not 

 any information, but we have no systematic informa- 

 tion as to the prices. 



569. Would it be possible for the Hoard to give u-, 

 or to get for us, information as to the price at which 

 agricultural land is being sold? It is very difficult, 

 of course. The information exists in the. hands of the 

 auctioneers or people who sell the estates. An at- 

 tempt could be made. Of course verv largely Liu- 

 figures are published; and at one time I did attempt 

 to get some information of that sort as to Bales of 

 land. It is not \ ery easy to get it complete; but 

 something could be done, if it was thought worth 

 while. 



570. Could you supply us with such information as 

 you have? Yes, I will see what we have. 



571. Mr. lltillnn: It has been suggested here that 

 the employers and the workers on the Wages Board 

 might be likely to put their he-ids together with the 

 object of conspiring to Meed the public by getting 

 good prices and good wages. From your experience 

 of the, Wages Board, do you think there is any likeli- 

 hood of that as a possible contingency? No, I should 

 say not, as the Board is at present constituted. I 

 .should not have thought that was a serious risk. 



572. You thinlt that even on the Board the interests 

 of the public are quite adequately .safeguarded? I 

 think it is fair to say the interests of the public and 

 the community at large are generally a consideration 

 in the minds of the members of the Board as a whole 

 in any action they may take. 



573. Supposing the Corn Production Act is per- 

 petuated f<ir some years, could you suggest any method 

 whereby the public interests would he safeguarded ; 

 that is to say. the public money would not be spent 

 upon subsidising farmers who would not care for the 



