32 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 



1919.] 



Siu HENRY BKW, K.O.B. 



i.; I. I <li> not want to exaggerate, it; but it was 

 suggested that they were not of tin- intelligence of 

 townspeople. Do you agree with that? No, per- 

 K'nally. I do not. 1 think tin- statement that has 

 been made is, that there, are a certain number of 

 unintelligent ami iin-ilu i>-ut farmers in this country. 



Tliat everybody would agree with. There arc 

 unintelligent men at the Board of Agriculture, I 

 daresay, if you hunted for them? I should certainly 



..:.. 



073. And in tho House of Commons my neighbour 

 thinks he has an example; but of course there must 

 be. What I really want to get at is, do you suggest 

 the farmers are not farming their land as well aa 

 farmers do in any other country ? No, I do not. 

 If you will allow me to complete what I was going to 

 say, it was that, |>ut in that form, that there are a 

 proportion of unintelligent an. I inefficient farmers, 

 we should all agree; but I think it would equally 

 apply to any other industry you may take, including 

 Civil Servants if you .wish, and I do nut think that 

 ili" proportion is greater than in any other industry; 

 I certainly do not think it is greater than in any 

 other country in the world. 



G74. There I agree with you, if 1 may venture to 

 say so. I gather it was suggested that if you turned 

 townsmen and experts on to the land, they would 

 make a much better job of it than the farmers? I 

 do not know that anybody has suggested that, but I 

 should not. 



676. You do not agree with it? No. 



076. It is a perfectly nonsensical suggestion. Tho 

 farmer knows his business as well as the cotton man, 

 say, knows his business? I think farming wants 

 Iteming as well as any other business. But might 

 I add, as another element in the discussion on this 

 particular point, that farming does differ from other 

 industries very largely, in view of the fact that a 

 certain proportion of the occupiers of land do not 

 occupy it for the sake of a livelihood, but occupy it, 

 more or less, as a pleasant way of spending their 

 time. I mean, they do not occupy it as .a commercial 

 proposition, and that, I think, is an element which 

 might possibly tend to increase the proportion of 

 persons who are not using the land to its utmost 

 capacity. 



677. I will leave out those gentlemen. Tho point 

 in question is this: that if the industry can be made 

 profitable, the existing farmer is the person to do it ; 

 that is the point I want to get at. You do not sug- 

 gest any alteration of driving the farmer out and 

 putting anybody else in his place? On anything like 

 a large scale it is almost impossible to put a new set 

 of men on the land in the country at once and 

 expect them to farm. That, of course, would be 

 absurd on a largo scale. 



078. Tho methods of farming progress tho same as 

 they do in every industry. If that is so, what we 

 have to devise is the means of keeping him in busi- 

 ness, is it not? Yes, provided you do not strain that 

 too far and say you have to devise the means of 

 keeping every man now farming on his farm. 



679. I have got so far with you that you think a 

 guarantee is a proper way. How do you propose the 

 guarantee should be fixed? A guarantee, to be 

 effective, must be fixed at such a level as will induce 

 farmers to occupy land and to continue cultivation. 



680. That wns not the point of my question; but 

 you mean it must bo fixed at such n price as will 

 [.avc the farmer a fair profit? Ol< a rly ; otherwise, in 

 the long run, no one will farm tin- land. 



681. What I meant was, whn is to decide on that 

 price? At present, of course, Parliament is decid- 

 ing it. 



682. You will agree, will you not, that to make it 

 effective (because agriculture is a business where you 

 can only turn over your goods once a year nt tho 

 outside) it most be fixed some time ahea'd? Yes. I 

 do not think it is possible to contemplate a fluctuat- 

 ing guarantee, so to say. from year to year, or a 



which expire* at the end of 12 months. 



683. That is what I wanted to get to rule out 

 altogether a guarantee varying in amount, according 



e*:---l think it is in the nature of a 

 guarantee in an industry like farming, that it must 

 bo for some little, time, not from yeur to year. 



684. Would not that imply that you ought to have 

 a fixed minimum wago for MIIHO time too? I am not 

 so sure about that. 



685. If not, how could you get the guarantee fixed 

 for some years ahead to meet the variations in the 

 wage? Because the cost of labour is not the only 

 element in the cultivation of the land. 



686. No; I only took that because it comes first in 

 tho list of expenses. It is these difficulties that have 

 to be met at some time, and I want some help? I 

 think it is tho existence of these difficulties which 

 accounts, very largely, for the institution of this 

 Commission. 



687. Quite true. Could you suggest how we are to 

 arrive at any figure which would cover these diffi- 

 culties? I think you can only arrive at a figure by 

 examining all the factors and taking evidence from 

 tho people who are competent to advise you. I am 

 sorry to say that I can give you very little help at 

 the present stage. 



688. I thought you were the most likely person, as a 

 matter of fact, at present. Assuming it is true that ' 

 the minimum wage is likely to rise, now is that pro- 

 vided for by a guarantee? One is rather arguing in 

 a circle, of course; but any minimum wage, in the 

 future, would have regard to the existing guarantee. 

 Assuming the State makes up its mind to give a 

 guarantee to farmers for a certain period of years, 

 it is obvious one of the elements in fixing the minimum 

 wage must be that guarantee. 



689. On the contrary, with deference, the Act pro- 

 vides that the minimum wage, is to be fixed entirely 

 independently of such considerations? I do not know 

 that it is quite true to say that. Of course, there 

 is section 5 (6) ; and, obviously, within limits, the 

 governing factor in fixing tho minimum wage is such 

 a wage as will enable tho labourer to five at a 

 standard of comfort which is reasonable for his .-lass. 



690. That is, quite independently of the amount of 

 guarantee? It is not altogether independent, in a 

 sense; because the level of everything the farmer has 

 to sell is very largely dependent on the level of world 

 prices of all kinds; and I think that if prices them- 

 selves keep up to farmers, it means that the prices 

 of foodstuffs should keep up, and that, therefore, tho 

 standard of comfort, that is to say, the amount of 

 money that is necessary to maintain that standard 

 of comfort, must also be higher than it would be. 



691. I will put the alternative. Supposing the 

 minimum wage goes down, and these gentlemen are 



ken as to their prognostications, and you have 

 a fixed guarantee for a number of years, would Mr. 

 Langford be right that that guarantee would go in 

 the farmer's pocket or the landlord's pocket? I 

 should say, in those circumstances, it is very unlikely 

 tho minimum wage would go down. 



692. But why? I am assuming, supposing the mini- 

 mum wage were to go down, and supposing there is 

 a general fall in all world prices, which is a possi- 

 bility, would not the minimum wage go down? I 

 think if there were a general fall in all world prices 

 aft or a guarantee had been fixed at a certain figure 

 at a different level of world prices well, it would l>o 

 very difficult to maintain the guarantee at that jwxr- 

 ticular price. 



693. Yes; but the guarantee is fixed before that, 

 you see. These are difficulties I want help on. They 

 are difficm \. -m l>oth sides, and you do i.oi 

 help me much:- No, I am trying to help you to Hie 

 best of my ability; but it is very little. It seems to 

 me that the conclusion wo are getting t together is, 

 that it, is impossible to <!<> anything. 



694. Wo have to find :v way of doir liing. 

 Let mo take you to another difficulty. We h:n. 

 land, b;i-l land, and what I call nicd'ium land. Is the 

 guarantee to enable- the very b.id land tobeciiltr 



in your view? No, not the very bad land. 



