10 



ROTAI. COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 



5 Ag*tt, 1919.] 



SIR DANIEL HALL, K.C.B., F.R.8. 



190. How than will you arrive at the average work- 

 ing oasts? In the fimt place, on tin- hroud issue 

 whether t.r not men ki-cii in the industry or not at a 

 crrUin level of |>ru-t. That. 1 take it, is one guide at 

 t.i whether tin- indiism is paving or not. Tlu-n. .it 

 course, an iin> system of State guarantee* has got '" 

 he founded n more exact figures, I hope we -hall in 



^tnro have at our dis|>oHal a great many more 

 hjjurea as to the working e\pen-c- of farms in the 

 different dii isioiis. 



191. Hut von ate drilling with wages as on.- of tin- 

 main items of working costs P Tee. 



192. How are you to arrive at the avciagc working 

 coats without taking into account tin- remuneration 

 of labour? You mean tin- labour might go "p after 

 you have fixed your guarantees P 



193. Yes? Of course, you cannot take that into 

 account. 



194. In your view then the guarantee of price for 

 produce will not take into account any attempt at 

 adjusting a balance between the prices of commodities 

 and the remuneration of labour? If you offer 

 guarantees for certain years ahead, you have to base 

 them on certain hypotheses, and labour is one of those 

 hypotheses. You have to estimate what it is likely 

 to be. Your calculation may be upset by the rates 

 being raised. 



195. You do not think it is possible to adjust prices 

 and the remuneration of labour? No; my conception 

 is certainly not that of adjusting between the two 

 any more than I should want to scale labour down 

 below the minimum if prices were not remunerative. 



196. Mr. Edwards : You have already explained to 

 ut that the principle adopted by the Board is the 

 guaranteeing of prices. In answering the question 

 just now, you spoke about good and bad land. You 

 aid that good land would be in a better position 

 unless the rent those are the only words you said? 

 \Vo have always been brought up to believe that 

 rent represents the margin between tin- cost of pro- 

 duction, including the profit at which the farmer is 

 willing to work it, and what the land is capable of 

 doing, and that the very good land will fetch a rent 

 to correspond. We know that it is not absolutely 

 true; but, in theory, the farmer ought to get the 

 same return on poor land as on good land : that is, 

 the same return to himself. The owner of the land 

 will absorb the margin. 



197. Does it not follow, then, that really the value 

 of the guarantee is to the owner of the land and 

 not to the farmer? It is, to a certain extent. We 

 are assuming that the rents are going to remain 

 the same, we will say, or thereabouts. 



196. Has the Board any data as to the tendency 

 of the rente at the present moment, because a 

 guarantee principle lias now been in vogue for some 

 year*? Has the Board any figures to enable us to 

 conclude who is really benefited by the guarantee? 

 You see, although these guarantees have been in 

 being for three yearn, they have not been opera- 

 tive. The actual market price has been a long way 

 above any guarantees, so that the guarantees, at any 

 rate, cannot have touched the question of rent. 



199. But has the Board any data as to the ten- 

 dency of what I may call the rent which the farmer. 

 that is, the man operating the land, luis to pay? 

 This i*. pcrha]*. not particularly germane, lint the 

 point that we see is tin-: at the present time the 

 difficulty i* that of getting rent* adjusted to 

 the change in the capital value of the land \\ 

 have at the present time the ciirioiiH *|K>ctaclc of. 

 ay, land that is selling at L'.'iO an acre only pro- 

 ducing a gross rent of 1 an acre. That is the 

 difficulty we are in with ic^.nrd t<i the purchase of land 

 for settlement purposes. So that, a* far as we can 

 see. rents have twit rison anything like the capital 

 values of land. 



200. Rut are you not aware, and has not the Hoard 

 I-- t<"l tin- s-lent revolution that is taking place in 

 the land M-ntem of this country now? You mean the 

 change of ownership? 



901. Ye*? Well, it is hardly silent 



302. You see. we are meeting, us the Chairman has 

 put it. to make a hala ami \\hai I want 



to get is the data. 1 should like to know whether 

 the Board, as the authority handling these questions, 

 can supply us with any figure- a- 10 this great change 

 which has taken place, and its economic .-(feet on tin- 

 industry in the future!' As to the amount <jf land 

 which has changed hands, do you mean!- 



203. Yes, and aa to price- ami things like, that? 

 We, doubtless, could provide some evidence as to 

 changes in prices which have taken place, hut 1 do 

 n.'t think we have any actual data as to the amount 

 of land sales. 



204. You are aware, In i have said al:- 

 that the Board recogni-e the fact, that the present 

 prices paid for land are alarming. These are your 

 words: "The Board view with great alarm the 

 immense appreciation in land at the present time"? 

 In certain classes of land, yes. 



205. You say here that the rent, taxes, and rate- 

 are items that have to he taken into account, an<! 

 I presume it-he interest fanner.- have to pay for the 

 purchase money will be reckoned in the same w 



That is what rather alarm- <me. 



206. As to the future prospects of the industry, 

 you say in your third paragraph that the State is 

 interested in two things: The maintaining of supplies 

 and the enforcing of a wage which will provide for 

 a decent standard of living. I presume the Board 

 has never been satisfied with maintaining the supplies. 

 You have in view the increasing of the supplies? 

 Yes; I think " maintain " is used rather loosely in 

 that sense. It means to maintain the supplies whicn 

 the nation needs. 



207. The Prime Minister spoke, not long sine.-. 

 about the security of capital. Has the Board any 

 data to give us as to the effect on the operator of 

 the insecurity to which his capital is at present ex- 

 posed? You see the land is on sale, and we have here 

 Mr. Frank Lloyd, one of the biggest auctioneers, who 

 says the whole of Cheshire will bo sold in a few 

 years. That being so, I think you will admit that a 

 good deal of the capital of the operator is in a very 

 insecure position. Has the Board any views on the 

 effect of that on tho ojwrator. both at present and 

 the likely effect in the future!- I cannot say that 

 we have 'any evidence. My own opinion is that the 

 operator is not thinking of the risks to his capital 

 in the business as much as he i* thinking of the risks 

 of future prices. That is what is holding him up 

 from developing his farm. He does not fool any 

 security about a continuance of the prosperity of the 

 industry. That has been one of tho chief reasons 

 why we suggest a guarantee. 



208. So in your opinion, representing the Board, 

 taking my own case, for instance, the fact that I 

 can receive notice to quit and lie compelled either to 

 buy nvy farm or to pay an increase of rent, or find 

 another farm in another part of tho country, has 

 no effect whatever on the development of the 

 industry? I certainly would not say that at all, 

 that it has no effect : but I do not we from the .-\ i- 

 ilcncc before me. of complaints (that it is tho big 

 (actor in the feeling of insecurity amongst farmers, 

 and in their doubts IM to intensifying their industry. 



200. Does not it strike you. imperially a- to in- 

 t--nsifyiiig industry on the face of it. whether it is 

 expressed or not. that to bo in such a position is n 

 impossible one for any industry? I would say. as I 

 always have said, that 1 have always wondered how 

 farmers would go into this bargain of the yearly 

 tenancy and found a business of that character U|KHI 

 -uch an insecure basis. Looking at it from the 

 outside, it ha- alwayn been a wonder lo me that they 

 wiinld undertake it. and that they would refuse, and 

 do refuse, t havo leases. Tn any other biisin- 

 which n mnn is going to embark hi* capital and risk 

 so much lofis on being turned out. he would insist 

 on having n 1. '< -rmer do-s not only not 



on a lease, but ho refuses a 1. i . \ I .,. it ha- 

 :du:i\- IM-CH a ni\stor\ to in'-, though one can under 

 -land to ;i certain extent how it ha- come about. 



