MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



13 .4 iignxt, 1919.] 



SIR WILLIAM H. BEVERIDGE, K.C.B. 



[Continued. 



SIR WILLIAM H. BEVERIDGE, K.C.B., Secretary of the Ministry of Food, called and examined. 



2364. Chairman: As wo 'all know, you are the very 

 eminent Secretary of the Ministry of Food ; and you 

 have put before us a letter of the 4th August, and 

 a short statement of the Heads of Preliminary Evi- 

 dence, which you propose to give. May I, without 

 reading the letter or the notes on your evidence, take 

 them aa read and insert them in the record of pro- 

 ceedings ? Yes. 



HEADS OF PRELIMINARY EVIDENCE. 



236o. (1) Ministry of Food, 



Palace Chambers, 



Westminster, S.W. 1, 



August 4th, 1919. 

 DEAR SIR WILLIAM PEAT, 



I SHALL attend before the Royal Commission on 

 Agriculture, as arranged, on Wednesday, August 6th, 

 at 10.30. I feel, however, some doubt as to the 

 precise points upon which the Commission will desire 

 me to give evidence, and I have experienced some 

 difficulty, accordingly, in preparing any definite heads 

 of evidence. I had thought of suggesting that it 

 might be better for me to have postponed giving 

 evidence until I had a clearer understanding of what 

 was required am! also more time to prepare a 

 statement. 



On the tfhole, however, I think that you would 

 probably prefer me to keep the appointment as made 

 for next Wednesday, and I have prepared some rather 

 hasty notes on the points with which I would propose 

 to deal. 



I would suggest, if you agree, that this might be 

 regarded as a preliminary attendance merely, at 

 which I could put before you the general position of 

 the Ministry of Food in relation to agriculture and 

 learn, from discussion what further and more detailed 

 information would be likely to be of advantage to 

 you. I am, of course, most anxious that the Ministry 

 of Food should give to the Royal Commission every 

 possible assistance. 



You will realise also that I shall not be able on 

 Wednesday to come with any definite suggestion as 

 to policy. I presume that at some time or other the 

 Commission will desire to receive such suggestions, but 

 it would clearly be necessary for me to have a fuller 

 opportunity of discussing matters with the Food Con- 

 troller before attending for this purpose. 



Yours sincerely, 

 (Signed) W. H. BEVERIDOE. 



2366. (2) Ministry of Fcod has come into contact 

 with agricultural community on twosides:^- 



(o) As taking over or controlling the price of 

 agricultural products cereals, meat, milk 

 and other dairy products, potatoes, Ac. 

 (6) As controlling feeding stuffs which are to a 

 large extent either (i) by-products of oils 

 and fats production, or (ii) cereals, home- 

 grown or imported. 



The two sides are connected, since the price to bo 

 paid for products obviously depends in part on cost 

 of feeding stuffs which are farmers' raw materials. 



2367. (3) Scientific costing in respect -of agricul- 

 tural products not yet possible. Agricultural Costings 

 Committee set up jointly by Ministry of Food and the 

 three Agricultural Departments, and is appointing 

 staff, but is not in full work. Further evidence will 

 be given by Director of Agricultural Costings. 



2368. (4) Meanwhile prices for agricultural produce 

 have had to be fixed by Ministry of Food (a) in the 

 light of such statistical data as were available or could 

 bo gathered by special commissions ; (6) on general con- 

 siderations; and (c) by bargaining between themselves 

 and the various Agricultural Departments and the 

 representatives of the producers and other interests 

 (Joint Officials Committee, Central Agricultural Advi- 

 sory Council and War Cabinet) Summary of action 

 taken in respect of particular products: 



2369. (5) Ccreali. 



2370. (6) Meat. 



2371. <7\ .Vitt-.-.Milk [-rice of 2s. 3d. for winter 

 I'M- 19 fixed by Ix>rd Rhondda after a discussion 



M representatives of producers (demanding 

 '!.) and consumers (demanding 2s.) on a Special 

 Comm i 



Travelling Commission for Summer Prices, 1919, on 

 bnsi* of farmers' returns less deduction of 2d. 



2.M 25 



Winter Prices, 1919-20, now under discussion. Four 

 alternative calculations and prices now being put for- 

 ward for criticism by producers' and consumers' repre- 

 sentatives. 



2372. (8) Potatoes. 1917 : Flat scale, averaging 6, 

 fixed by bargain between Food Controller and Board 

 of Agriculture, 1918 : Travelling Commission for 

 England and Wales fixed differential scales for 

 different parts of country, after considering farmers' 

 returns and crop prospects. Departmental bargains 

 for Scotland and Ireland. 



2373. (9) Difficulties of Price Fixing in Agricul- 

 ture. 



(a) Absence of precise figures except in rare and 

 probably not typical cases. 



(6) Varying modes of cultivation and varying 

 yield resulting therefrom Potato Commis- 

 sion Report (par. 6). 



(c) Uncertainty as to crop (especially potatoes, 



fruit) and yield (milk). 



(d) Disagreement on principles of costing, e.g., 

 ' whether home-grown feeding-stuffs (hay, 



barley, oats, roots) should be taken at mar- 

 ket or at production prices. 



Possibility of using direct comparison between present 



and pre-war costs of production as basis for propor-. 



tionate increase of prices. This surmounts in large 



part difficulties (a) and (b). 



2374. (10) General comparison of present and pre- 

 war prices to producer. 



2375. (11) General result in maintaining produc- 

 tion. 



2376. (12) Suggestions for further evidence: 

 (a) Facts. 



(5) Policy. 



(This conclude.i the preliminary evidence.) 

 Chairman : I shall ask Mr. Walker to begin. 



2377. Mr. Walker: It appears from this statement 

 you have put in, that it has been rather hurriedly 

 prepared ? Yes. 



2378. Have you prepared anything further since 

 this? No. May I interrupt to this extent? I have 

 no objection to your putting this statement in as evi- 

 d^ence ; but I rather sent it in as notes on which 1 

 should myself have made a statement. I only give 

 that as an explanation of the gaps in it. It is notes 

 of evidence rather than evidence. 



Chairman: It will be headed "Heads of Pre- 

 liminary Evidence." 



237!). 'Mr. Walker: In Item 2 where you state the 

 Ministry has come into contact with the agricultural 

 community on two sides, you give (a) and (6). Could 

 you give us any idea of the general results of having 

 come into contact with them? Could you tell me 

 what points you have in mind? 



2380. You say here you have come into contact 

 with the agricultural community on two sides, as to 

 taking over or controlling the price of agricultural 

 products. What has been your experience as the 

 result of that? Do you mean the result on produc- 

 tion? 



2381. Yes? I did not know if you meant that point. 

 So far as we can see, our coming into contact with 

 agriculture has certainly not diminished agricultural 

 production or prosperity. That is a negative result 



2382. Going a little further, is it your opinion 

 (and I put it to you personally if you like) that 

 guarantees to the producers are essential to get the 

 best results: that a guaranteed price is essential, 

 say, for example, as it is under the Corn Production 

 Act? Is it your opinion that those guarantees are 

 essential ? No, I should not say so not for all agri- 

 cultural products. 1 am inclined to think that for 

 some, and I instance particularly milk, there might 

 be good reason for a guaranteed price, because there 

 are such special difficulties in its production ; but I 

 certainly would not say it was essential for all pur- 

 poses. 



2383. Could you give us an idea of the special diffi- 

 culties you refer to? In the production of milk? 



2384. Yes; could you enumerate some? I think 

 they are mainly the labour difficulties. It is a very 

 laborious and difficult branch of the agricultural, 

 industry, involving conditions with which you nro 

 very much more familiar than I am myself. 



G 2 



