MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



99 



13 August, 1919.] 



SIR WILLIAM H. BEVERIDGE, K.C B. 



[Continued. 



except in the vaguest way with the natural result 

 that the most divergent views were expressed on these 

 essential elements of our inquiry. We feel sure that 

 the costs as presented to us were on the whole 

 exaggerated, not from any intention to deceive the 

 Commission, but owing to a general tendency to 

 attribute to all potato growers in an area the 

 advanced kinds of husbandry exercised only by the 

 most enlightened few." I should like to put in the 

 whole of that Report. 



2408. Chairman: Would you kindly put it in and 

 let us hava a fe,ood many copies of iff Certainly. I 

 will make a n< te of that. 



Dr. Douglas : Shall we have an opportunity of 

 examining on it? 



2409. Chairman: I do not know that Sir William 

 was a member of it? I was certainly not a member 

 of the Commission. 



Mi: Smith: Would not it be better to have the 

 Report submitted to us, and then decide what to do 

 afterwards ? 



Chairman: Yes. 



3410. Mr. Smith : It is quite evident from your 

 answers that you could not get any real data on the 

 details. Was there anything available to guide you 

 in so far as the final results of farm working were 

 concerned:' I mean, you may not be able to get the 

 details; but was there anything to show how far a 

 farm as a whole was worked although a non-profitable 

 concern ? Before we fixed the price or after we 

 fixed the price do you mean!' 



2411. Any time. It is only on the question whether 

 you came across any evidence in that respect? I 

 think there is evidence to show that on the whole wo 

 ha\e not fixed prices too low because we have not 

 discouraged production. That is subsequent evidence ; 

 but it was not any guidance in fixing the price. 



2412. My point is rather as to whether in arriving 

 at your conclusion as to what would be a satisfactory 

 price, you were guided by any general results of the 

 farm in the absence of any details which might 

 guide you in the actual cost of producing whether 

 there was any balance sheet or anything available to 

 guide you in the form of definite information on farm 

 working-' No. I think I can only refer to what I 

 have got in my notes; taking article by article. 

 With cereals it was practically a bargain of a certain 

 number of people in the Board of Agriculture and us, 

 who had a general knowledge of agriculture and 

 general ideas in their minds as to how much costs had 

 gone up. If you take meat, that is really the same 

 sort of bargain based on some idea of how the cost 

 has gone up. If you take potatoes we had this travel- 

 ling Commission. If you take milk. I think we have 

 had a travelling Commission, and we have had bar- 

 gaining, and we have now got a suggestion which I 

 have put forward that one should go on the line of 

 taking the pre-war price as a basis, taking the pro- 

 portionate increase in the costs of production and 

 making that the basis of the price. 



2413. Could you tell us whether you have any know- 

 ledge of a particular character as to how far these 

 prices that have been fixed have been satisfactory to 

 tho industry? I cannot speak as to every price. 

 Some prices have lx>en objected to and some have not ; 

 but generally, and I will give you the figures, I think 

 I could show that, judging by the results upon die 

 agricultural industry end the development of it, the 

 prices cannot have been unsatisfactory. They have 

 clearly been such as to develop the industry on the 

 whole. 



2414. In that respect, would it be fair to assume 

 that you base your opinion on general results rather 

 than specific instances or places where there is any 

 detailed information? Yes. 



241/5. Mr. Walker: Is not it a fact that deputations 

 have been received at the Food Ministry, at the Con- 

 suiiiiT-.' Council, for example, from time to time for 

 fixing prices for milk and beef, and so on; and has 

 not it IHTII held out by certain individuals, or at any 

 rate we have Ix-on HO informed, that " Unless such and 

 -ii' 'li a priee is forthcoming we refuse to produce; we 

 inrinot produce "? IB not that so? That is the pro- 

 cess of bargaining, as I describe it. 



2410. Has not the price ultimately been fixed on 

 your >wn showing now, without having any data to go 

 upon so far as nrtnal costs aro concerned? Tt depends 



2M25 



what you mean by data. If you mean that we have 

 not been able to apply scientific costing or anything 

 like scientific costing, as we have applied it to the 

 distributive trades in food, then I agree entirely, and 

 ultimately all these prices have been fixed by an 

 estimate after bargaining. But it has not been in all 

 cases an estimate absolutely in the dark. I mean we 

 have known how much the cost of feeding stuffs had 

 gone up, we have known how much the cost of labour 

 had gone up ; and we have had estimates as in the case 

 of potatoes of the yield per acre and the cost of pro- 

 duction per acre. There has been a large element of 

 estimate, but it is not estimate without information. 



2417. But more or less we have been going round 

 and round, as it were, in a vicious circle so far as the 

 fixing of those prices is concerned ; and the Food 

 Ministry, in order to get the production and to get 

 hold of necessities, have always conceded these de- 

 mands more or less? They have certainly not con- 

 ceded the whole of the demands. 



2418. Conceded many of them? Certainly. The 

 Food Ministry, in order to be on the safe side and not 

 discourage production, I should say have generally 

 given the benefit of the doubt to the producer in pur- 

 suance of their essential policy of putting supplies 

 before prices. 



2419. Mr. Parker: In the letter of the 4th August, 

 which covered your evidence-in-chief. you say in the 

 concluding paragraph: " You will realise also that I 

 shall not be able on Wednesday to come with any 

 definite suggestion as to policy.'' That was the 

 Wednesday following the 4th August. Are you now- 

 prepared to put before us any policy, and by 

 " policy" I mean the policy of the Ministry of Food 

 or the general agricultural policy of the country, 

 which you would recommend after your experience at 

 the Ministry of Food? I was referring there to the 

 general agricultural policy of the country. I am not 

 sure to what extent it is the business of the Food C'oiv 

 troller to express views ; but if you wished him to do 

 so no doubt he would, or I would on his behalf. 



2420. I think it would be interesting to the Com- 

 mission to hear what policy would bo recommended 

 by the Ministry of Food after their great experience. 

 I do not know what the Chairman says to that. 



2421. Chairman: I agree. There is no objection to 

 your asking the question? But that is just the point 

 on which I must have a discussion with the Food 

 Controller ; and I rather left it in tho hope of learning 

 from you what are the points upon which the Com- 

 mission wants information and wants opinions. I am 

 a little in the dark as to what information you want 

 or on which points you want us to express an opinion. 



2422. Mi: Parker : I was seeking to find your 

 opinion for our guidance? I have given one on 

 policy : that it was the policy of the Ministry of Food 

 to maintain the milk supply by guaranteed prices, 

 which, of course, involves control, even if other articles 

 were not controlled. I should say that perhaps a 

 second most important thing that the Ministry of 

 Food would regard would be, the pushing forward of 

 an effective costing system in agriculture. I think 

 that is one of the most important things ; because it 

 enables us to fix proper prices instead of bargain 

 prices, and at the same time it satisfies the farmer 

 that we are doing so, and does maintain his pro- 

 duction. 



2423. Then you would advocate minimum prices 

 being fixed for other things besides milk, for instance 

 cereals? I should like to consider that. I do not 

 want to say yes or no to that. 



2424. Have you any costing figures that have been 

 put before you that might be useful to this Commis- 

 sion, which you could put in, which would help us to 

 come to some decision as to the costs of production? 

 We have got a variety of figures of all sorts and kinds. 

 I have, for instance, all the winter milk figures which 

 wo are discussing. These we can certainly send you. 

 I do not think there are any figures upon cereals at 

 all to speak of. Then there are potato figures. I will 

 make a collection, and send them to you if you like. 



2425. Chairman : Will you please send such things 

 as you have? Yes ; only remember that that is now to 

 some extent the work of the Agricultural Costings 

 Committee, which is nof a Ministry of Food Com- 

 mittee, but a Joint Committee rather than ourselves. 



G 3 



