1(11' 



1.1 Auyutt, litUI.J 



K"YAI. i "MMI.sslciN i>N A(,l;l( I I.TI UK. 



Sn: WILLIAM 11. liKVKKilxiK, K.C.B. 



[Continued. 



milk. Do you mean by that the present sort of 

 guarantee, or extending the provisions of the (Wn 

 Production Act to milk:- No, what 1 luul in mind 

 there wa a aohenie for the permanent control of tlu> 

 wholesale milk trade, and a guarantee to purchase 

 milk nt the guaranteed price through the wh-- 

 milk trade. 



\, You said that tin- Ministry 01 Food had not 

 lixtxl prices so low as to discourage production at nil? 

 I think that is broadly true. 1 h.n. no <loul>t tin- 

 OonunisMon have the figures of production. 1 cm 

 submit them if wanted. 



3474. Do you think there is any possibility of your 

 having gone to the extreme, and over encouraged 

 production in any particular item.- Have you .my 

 evidence of that kind: 1 I should think it is possible 

 some of our prices have been too high. 



i. You do not say it i~ 1 would like 



to look into that. 



J!7> . I u i-h you would? I have a suspicion thoro 

 are some cases. 



Mr. -I. M. Henderson: In that same paragraph 4 

 you say : " In the light of such statistical data as 

 wen- available or could be gathered by special com- 

 missions." Was there any gathered by special com- 

 msf 



-177. I'hiiirnuin: That is answered. They have had 

 the Special Commissions, and Sir William is going 

 to send the reports here? I am referring to the 

 Potato Commission, and the 'fr.-ivelling Milk Com- 

 mission ; and I will let you have those. 



I'l" 1 -. Mr. J. M. Henderson: In paragraph 8 you 

 say that in 1917 the flat scale averaging was 

 fixed by bargain between the Food Controller and the 

 Board of Agriculture. Was not there an order that 

 they were not allowed to tell under 6 at one time? 

 rl am trying to get the, years right. 



2179. It'was in 1917? Yes, 1 think there was. That 

 was a guaranteed price. 



2I*<). Were not the farmers in the .North anxious 

 II at 3 10s. ? I think that is quite likely to 

 liavi- happened. 



21*1. And later on you allowed them to do it? Yes. 



2482. According to the Corn Production Act, you 

 have wheat 60s. a quarter as the minimum price; but 

 what is the maximum price at which you have been 

 buying? The maximum price for wh. 



. What is tho price at which the Food Control 

 have been buying wheat? 75s. or 76s., I think, now. 



2484. What is that guided by why 76s. ? I have 

 said tho cereal prices have throughout been fixed 

 by a bargain, generally by an arbitration by the 

 War Cabinet. 1 believe that the foundation of tho 

 whole, as I have >aid, has been tho price that was 

 being paid in America. 



2485. But probably, if you had not fixed that 76s., 

 we would have been doing it at 70s. 



ChtiiniHin: I do not think that is a question win- h 

 Sir William should be asked to answer. Ho is not 

 responsible for the 76s. and you cannot criticise the 

 price they have paid. 



2486. 31 r. J. M. II < mlcnon: I am criticising tin 

 points that arc put before us. The witness has put 

 forward a prfrii here, and wo are surely entitled 

 with all submission to examine on it? I only wish 

 to Say thiil your criticism of that particular case 

 must be on the War Cabinet. 



21*7. Very well. Then I am content that it should 

 rest there. But I want to eet the facts all the 

 game. As to a great many of these prices for cereals 

 and for other things which are not included in the 

 Corn Product inn Act. would you say that by thi.s 

 action of the War Cabinet of fixing big prices. 

 (Feet has boen to create a demand for a further 

 increase on the Corn Product ion A--t.? I do not quite 

 know how to answer that. Your question is whether 

 the action of the Cabinet in fixing these |rrices 



2488. Which arc very high? I should have thought 

 that tho action of the Cabinet in fixing those price-. 

 was rather a recognition of the tint that the Coin 

 Production Act prii > s were- really altogether too low, 

 having regard to the course of world pi i 



m: I do not think that is a proper ques- 

 tion, aa to what is the reason for an action of the 

 Cabinet 



Mr. J. M. Henderson: I am only asking the effect 



mi the producer. 



Mr. Miill.'i-. On a point "f order, it HI- i.imiot. 

 extract the information from sir William, can we 

 li.ue a representative of the \\ . i ( alunct h. 



< IttiiriiKiii : Thai is another question. 



Mi\ J. M. //em/i .<<.,. My point i> this, and 1 

 want to force it. We have certain figures here, 

 and I daresay thev uere fixed on bargaining, but 

 they have no relation whatever to the actual priccri 

 being paid.. We find another element coming in 

 to the actual prices being paid, which is outside 

 Parliament altogether, that is the effect of certain 

 prices being far above what they might have been 

 on an ordinary market price. We are asked to say 

 what the economic position is, and we an- 

 with various prices, such as a minimum price of 

 OOh)., and a selling price of 76s. If we me ever going 

 to say how this economic question i-. to be .settled, 

 we must get at the inwardness of it. If we are 

 alwa.ys to have a ii< us (S iiiiirliiiui who will alter 

 the prices, we do not know where we 



Chutrman: Sir William is not the man to speak as 

 to the actions of the Cabinet. 



Mr. J. M. Henderson: No; but he can tell us 

 of them. 



2489. Y'ou say, or at least it is your opinion, 

 that you are in favour of milk being guaranteed; 

 but, with regard to the- other tilings, that would 

 necessitate a fresh Bill? Yes; on the whole I am 

 ist a guarantee for the other things, but it 

 is not because it would necessitate a fresh Hill. 



'. Dealing with milk, have you taken any 

 .nts from the farmers in certain districts- in 

 Kngland, who send their milk, and are paid on the 

 spot, to such depots as Simley near Shal tesbury, 

 and other depots, where a certain price is paid to 

 them, and they are relieved of all the bother of 

 Bending it to the market? I have no direct know- 

 ledge of Simley. 



2491. It is a very fine institution, and the farmers 

 all take their milk to it in cans, and they are paid 

 so much every day. There are a great many of these 

 people throughout the country. Th:>.-c people ought 

 not to have the :-lightttst difficulty in giving you tho 

 figures. Y'ou speak hero of scientific costing. You 

 have a Department of Agriculture, of which we have 

 a representative here. What do you mean by- 

 scientific? What Mr. Peat docs in the Mil 

 of Food for grocers and other distributors in tho 

 food trade; that is, he examines their books, their 

 costs of production, their average profits, and their 

 turnover, and says how much they should bo allowed 

 for Helling a pound of lard, say. 



_M!)2. I should say that is common book-keeping? 

 Whether it is scientific costing or common book- 

 keeping, it is not done' by farmers. 



2-19.1. I do not know whether you arc- aware- that 

 scientific costing has been adopted by the- Ministry 

 of Munitions, which no farmer or anybody could 

 >'y ever attain to. With regard to feeding stuffs, 

 I suppose the r>ul reason why they are so expensive i^ 

 because you cannot get the linseed from Hussia? I 

 really do not know why at the moment it is MI expen 

 sive, and no one knows whether it is going to remain 

 > \ pensive. 



-Mill. In your investigations, have yon found a very 

 largo quantity of land in Kngland and Scotland on 

 which it, is really unprofitable to grow wheat? I 

 think I should like yon to ask tin- Food Production 

 Department that question. We do not know of that 

 directly. It is a Foe M! Production Department rather 

 than a Ministry of Food question. 



2l!l.">. Putting it quite shortly, in your invcstiga- 

 you have not seen a single revenue and expendi- 

 ture account from any !' .-inner showing what- the total 

 income from all sources of his farm was. and what 

 his expenditure in all dircc'.jons on the other side 

 bringing out his profit or lo.ss, as the case might 

 be? I pi i -"iially have not. 



2-19(1. Do you know anybody in your Department- 

 who has!- I should be viry much surprised to find 

 there was no one in the- Department who has Ml 

 nut of that sort ; but I will enquire. 



2497. And if you get thai precious document, will 

 von let u* have a copy of it? Yes. 



