MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



103 



13 August, 1919.] 



SIR WILLIAM H. BEVEKIDGE, K.C.B. 



[Continued. 



2498. Mr. Green : With regard to wool, is not there 

 a large element of speculation which has forced up 

 the price of wool; 1 I am happy to say I know nothing 

 about wool. We do not deal with that at all. 



2499. With regard to hay, have you lixed the price 

 of that for this year? We have not, and I think the 

 War Cabinet still have not. I know they are con- 

 sidering it this morning. 



2500. There is a danger, do not you think, accord- 

 ing to the market prices of hay at the present time, 

 of farmers selling their hay and letting down the 

 production of meat and milk:' There is a certain 

 danger; but I do not think one must exaggerate that 

 danger, because farmers like to keep their industry 

 going. 



2501. With regard to the prices of linseed and other 

 cakes, do not you think that shipping profiteering 

 makes a large hole in costings? Do you mean the 

 shipowner profiteering? 



2502. Yes, the rates of freight? I should not think 

 it makes a very big item. Of course, it would be 

 relatively big in these feeding stuffs, because they 

 are bulky, and, of course, the freights have been 

 very high. 



2503. I may as well mention that some cocoa-nuts 

 left the coast of Africa at about 6 a ton, and were 

 sold in London at about 60. I do no* think it is all 

 shipping freights? That might be sales and resales 

 on passage. It might not be profiteering by the ship- 

 owner. 



2504. I do not want to ask you an unfair question ; 

 but with regard to the new controlled price of wheat, 

 did the War Cabinet have any agricultural advisers 

 when they fixed that price? Do you mean tho 

 guaranteod price for this new harvest? 



2505. Yes, for this year?They had the Board of 

 Agriculture. It was done on their recommendation. 

 The Ministry of Food had nothing at all to do with 

 that particular proposal. 



2506. And I suppose it would not be fair for me to 

 ask you if you did not think the action was uncon- 

 stitutional. 



Chairman : Sir William is a civil servant, and can- 

 not criticise his superior. 



2507. Mr. Green: You answered to the question of 

 transport ; and I was rather surprised to hear your 

 answer, in which you said you had no complaints 

 from farmers about transport? I do not think I said 

 that. I am glad you asked. me that, because wo have 

 had many complaints about transport. There is a 

 series of complaints about potatoes. 



_.">(K With regard to potatoes, is not it your 

 opinion that tho potato growers have been the biggest 

 profiteers during war time amongst the farmers? 

 I think it is quite impossible to say who has made the 

 biggest profits. Clearly, with our guaranteed price, 

 and a big harvest, most potato growers must have 

 done very well this year. On the other hand a 

 number have lost owing to the spoiling of the crop. 



2509. Would you he surprised to hear of a potato 

 grower in Lincolnshire having made 60,000 profit 

 last year? -Not in the least. 



2510. You said just now you thought the argument 

 was at its height, and it might be settled in a week. 

 Were you referring to the new guaranteed prices? I 

 was referring to the winter milk prices. 



2511. Mr. Edu-ards: I should like your opinion as 

 to the real object of the fixing of the prices by the 

 Ministry of Food? It varied. In the case of cereals 

 and meat and cattle, we started in order to keep 

 prices down. We thought they would otherwise have 

 risen too high and have led to profiteering hy the 

 farmers. In other cases like potatoes, we have fixed 

 guaranteed prices in order to secure a crop, to en- 

 courapo porduction. 



2512. In the latter case merely as a war measure? 

 Yes, merely as a war measure. 



2513. Havo you any idea from your experience as 

 to whether the agricultural industry as a whole has 

 really been subsidised in any way by your prices, 

 speaking generally, and not in a particular instance 

 of a Lincolnshire potato grower or anything of that 



sort? Do you mean by a subsidy, that it has received 

 money which has come direct out of the taxes. Do 

 you mean that? 



2514. Yes? That undoubtedly has happened in the 

 case of cereals, where you have got the bread sub- 

 sidy, the farmer getting 75s., when the price he 

 should have got for the 9d. loaf was about 60s. or 62s. 

 Equally, there has been a subsidy at the cost of the 

 State in the case of potatoes. In other cases like 

 meat, there has been no subsidy from the State be- 

 cause the public have paid the full cost. I do not 

 know whether that answers your question? 



2515. Yes. I should like your explanation as to 

 how the subsidy on the loaf really works. Do you 

 mean to say that the price paid to the farmer is 

 really above what he would get in an open market?. 

 No, I do not say that. 



2516. Then how does it work that you say we are 

 subsidised? To sell the loaf at 9d., a miller ought to 

 bo paying a farmer about 60s. or 62s., if he has to 

 turn that into flour, and produce a loaf at 9d. He is 

 actually paying him 75s. The difference between 

 those conies out of the Exchequer. 



2517. Yes; but it is not the farmer who is being 

 subsidised, but the consumer? Certainly. Put it 

 either way. I only want to answer your question. 



Chairman : I did not understand Sir William to 

 say that the farmer was subsidised in any shape what- 

 ever. 



Mr. Edwards: Yes, he did. 



(At the request of the Chairman, the Shorthand 

 Writer read the last preceding few, questions and 

 answers.) 



Witness : I do not want to quarrel about words at 

 all. I do not want to suggest in the case of cereals 

 that the farmer has got money from the State which 

 he would not have got in open market, and I am 

 glad to have this opportunity of distinguishing; be- 

 cause in tho case of potatoes of course he has got 

 money from the State which unquestionably he would 

 not have got in the open market. I do not know 

 about this year, but certainly in 1917 he did. 



2518. Mr. Edwards: But you are prepared to udmit 

 that was purely a war measure in order to influence 

 the, crop in that particular year? I not' only admit 

 it; but I strongly urge that it should be only a war 

 measure. 



2519. Therefore, you are prepared to admit that tho 

 fixing of prices in your Department was merely to 

 prevent the rising of prices, and not in any way to 

 guarantee the farmer a price? Both motives. Tho 

 first one you name was the original motive for both 

 cases. 



2520. You spoke about cheese. I am a milk 

 seller myself, and as a matter of fact I am selling 

 below your price; but may I remind you that large 

 parts of the country do not make cheese at all, so 

 that your fixing the price of cheese only affects a 

 comparatively small area of the country? Yes. Of 

 course, the farmer may sell his milk to a factory to 

 turn into cheese; and as the factory is going to get 

 our guaranteed price for cheese it can afford to keep 

 up the milk price. I do not think our guarantee is 

 limited to the case where the farmer is making his 

 own cheese. 



2521. But there are plenty of areas in the country 

 where there are no cheese factories near. In my part 

 of the country such a thing is unknown so far. Then 

 a good many questions have been asked you about 

 the costs of production of such an article as milk, 

 and a good many of our friends on the Commission 

 appear to think it is a very easy matter to do it. You 

 have already pointed out some of the difficulties. I 

 presume you recognise that a large number of tho 

 farmers, like myself, are mixed farmers? Yes. 



2522. And consequently it is a very difficult matter 

 indeed, if not an impossibility, I should say, to find 

 out tho real cost of one particular article which I 

 produce on my farm? Just as impossible as to find 

 out the cost' to a grocer of selling any one article. 

 You have to take the whole of tho trade. 



