MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



105 



13 August, 1919.] 



SIR WILLIAM H. BEVEIUDGE, K.C.B. 



[Continued: 



2557. It is not the intention, I take it, of the 

 Ministry of Food in the fixing of any minimum price 

 to give any undue profit? That is so. 



2558. You have also said that you ultimately have 

 to compromise between the market price and the cost 

 of production. Is that always done. 1 ' No. that 

 particular question has arisen most acutely ill the 

 case of milk, which is rather a fresh case. 



2559. There you think that that would be reason- 

 able? I think that a compromise would be reason- 

 able. 



2560. Is that amongst other things based on the fact 

 that at the present moment owing to the scarcity of 

 hay for other requirements there is a very much 

 larger market for hay than in ordinary times, and 

 therefore the producer of hay can easily find his 

 market rather than give it to cows to produce milk? 

 - I was dealing quite generally with the contrast 

 between market prices, not chiefly at this present 

 time. 



2561. Is it not the case that on the whole there is 

 still a very considerable scarcity of supplies and a 

 necessity for the continuation of control and maximum 

 prices: 1 In some articles there is a scarcity. 



25b'2. Is there any reason for fixing u maximum 

 price unless there is a scarcity? Yes. One may wish 

 to encourage production here, as in the case of 

 potatoes or of milk. You may want to increase 

 production. I agree that the main motive of the 

 .Ministry of Food in fixing prices is the fear of an 

 increase through scarcity.- 



2563. Coming to the question of feeding stuffs, you 

 will be able to agree with me, I think, that the price of 

 linseed cake during last winter was 19 per ton at. 

 the farmer's station? I am not exactly aware of it, 

 but I have no doubt that is correct. 



3504. You are also aware that the price, by arrange- 

 ment with the manufacturer, is now to be '25 per ton 

 ex mill? Yes. 



2565. Have you had produced to you detailed 

 figures showing why that price required to go up from 

 19 at the farmer's station to 25 ex mill? Those 

 figures have not been produced to me personally. 



2566. To your Department? Certainly 



2567. Can this Commission have them? Certainly, 

 the Commission can have the information as to the 

 grounds on which we fixed that price. I have not 

 seen it myself, but I will give you the information 

 on which we settled that. 



2568. Can you tell me whether it was on a cost of 

 production basis that that was done, or was it on a 

 bargaining basis? I really do not know; I should 

 think it was both. 



2569. Would I be right in saying that the prin- 

 cipal item which caused it to ! so high was the fact 

 that the manufacturers asked for it? It dearly 

 would not have been as high if they had not asked 

 for it. 



2570. And that they are sufficiently strong not only 

 to ask for a thing out to get it? I am not going 

 to say that is all that they asked for ; I do not know. 



2571. However, you will produce those figures? I 

 will give you a statement of the procedure by which 

 we came to agree to that price with the manu- 

 facturers. 



2572. Along with that you will give us the detailed 

 figures of the increases if they were produced to you? 

 If they were. 



2-")7:(. My reason for asking, of course, is that the 

 item of cake enters so much into the prices of milk 

 and meat for which farmers are held responsible? 

 Quite. 



2. r )71. One other question on the price of cake. I 

 think probably you will be able to agree that in 

 n-gsird to the price of beef for the coming winter it 

 hag been proposed by the farmers' representatives 

 that if cake comes down they will be prepared to 

 ; less than they otherwise would for beef, 

 thereby showing that cake enters considerably into 

 tho ...st :- Yes. 



257">. Mr. Ovrrlnan: Everyone knows that the 

 control of meat now is to continue to the end of June 

 next? Yee. 



257<>. Km -ii, <ii-s :ire not subsidised as regards beef 

 during tin- next nix months?-- -No, f think not 



2577. 1 really want a plainer answer than the 

 answer you gave to Mr. Edwards on this vexed ques- 

 tion of control. You realise that before the fixing 

 of prices in the past the farmer would certainly have 

 got much larger prices if he had had the play of the 

 market? Yes, 1 think that on the whole our agri- 

 cultural prices I except potatoes have kept prices 

 below the market value. 



2578. The prices that have been set have been below 

 the market value, and therefore farmers have not 

 been subsidised in respect of cereals? I hope I have 

 made it perfectly plain that in order to keep the 

 price of bread at its present low level a certain 

 amount of money is paid out by the State which may 

 be said to go into the pockets of the farmer, but 1 

 do not want to suggest For a moment that the farmer 

 would not have got as much money apart from that 

 subsidy if the State had simply stayed right out. 

 I do not want to quarrel' about words ; I want to give 

 you perfectly clearly what the facts are. 



2579. The answer to the question is yes, as a matter 

 of fact? That they would have had higher prices? 



2580. Yes? 1 think probably they would. 



2581. Do you think with your large experience you 

 could guide us at all as to the future? Does your 

 experience of the past years lead you to believe that 

 if in the future control and guaranteed prices were 

 taken off, and there was a free market for everything 

 and free labour in plain language scrapping the 

 Corn Production Act it would be better for all 

 concerned ? That is a very comprehensive question. 



2582. It is a plain question that we want advice 

 upon ? I should like to think over the answer to that 

 question. I had not regarded that I may say aa a 

 matter of practical politics within the lifetime of the 

 Department with which I am concerned. The 

 Ministry of Food is going on for a year, and I am 

 afraid I am only looking forward for a year. Within 

 that time I had not regarded the possibility of 

 scrapping these controls. I will consider it and see 

 if I can give you a more satisfactory answer. 



2583. If you will consider it and can give us advice 

 on that subject I think it will be very useful to 

 us? I do not think it will be of much use to you. 



2584. Your first object in deciding whether control 

 should continue or not is to study the interests of the 

 community rather than those of the producer? I was 

 no't distinguishing between them there. Having 

 regard to the fact that there are Departments whose 

 special interest is to study the producer, the Food 

 Controller has to make certain that he studies 

 what I call first the consumer, but I think 1 may 

 say the producer comes a very very good second in his 

 mind. I mean, it is by no means a question of 

 simply looking at the interests of the consumer. 



2585. Mr. Anker Simmons: The policy of the Food 

 Ministry has been a war time policy, has it not? 

 Yes. 



2586. The object being to do our best to soe that 

 so far as was possible there was an adequate supply, 

 and also at the same time to provide an equal dis- 

 tribution ? Yes. 



2587. We were also to some extent hampered with 

 regard to the fixing of prices by the fact that we 

 had to adopt the principle of a flat rate? Yes. 



2588. That was for tho purposes of administration? 

 Yes. 



2589. Because otherwise administration would have 

 been practically impossible if we hud had differential 

 rail's all over the country? I will not say impossible. 



2590. Very expensive? It is an added complication 

 and I daresay in some respects it might prove 

 impossible. 



2591. So that it must be borne in mind that on 

 a flat rate policy we could not avoid giving perhaps a 

 large profit to a few, and hardly a working profit to 

 others. It was only the average man who got what 

 you tried to provide a fair working profit? I think 

 that is so. 



2592. It is rather suggested that there was a certain 

 amount of bargaining without perhaps the strictest 

 investigation. Is it not the fact that so far as was 

 possible, right' through from tho very formation of 

 the Ministry of Food, whicli you yourself have taken 

 a prominent part in from the start, every care Trai" 

 takon to ascertain as far as wo possibly could whut 



