108 



1;<>Y.\I. (<>.\l MISSION <X A(;lil< I I.TfRE. 



Augutl, 1919.] 



WII.I.I.VM II. HKVKISIIH.I. K I: 



unifd. 



9676. Perhaps it might bo thought so again- I 

 may bo thought no lain. 



J070. That is the method of administration tlint 

 you auggcM that tho <;<ivcinmeiit .should pun ha-. 

 the whole)' Government purchase of tin- wholesale 

 milk trade, not excluding the alternative of lhe pro- 

 ducers themselves through their M-i<ti-s, takin. 

 the wholesale trade. That is niu>tlu>r clement in it. 



9677. Have you considered tin- (Jovci nment pur- 

 chasing tho cheese industry also, or did von propose 

 to separate the twor 1 cannot say that wo have come 

 to any definite rom-lti.-ion aa regard-, thai. Tlien> i.s 

 more than one alternative, each of which I think is 

 possible. 



9678. It is a very important question, is it not? 

 Yes. I merely say that obviously there are solutions 

 possible. 



2679. With regard to the prices that wore discu.cd 

 and fixed for last winter's milk, you have told us 

 what "the proposals were. I do not know whether 

 you want to refer to the responsible advice given to 

 the Pood Controller by the Agricultural Advisory 

 Committee. I do not think that it is open to me, 

 to make a statement, but if you want to make it, 

 do so. I do not want it to be stated that that body 

 recommended eventually the price of 2s. 6d.? I can- 

 not remember. I nm afraid my memory is not as 

 good on that as yours. 



2880. It is not for me to make a statement, but 

 I put this point to voti : even suppose the price 

 of 2s. 6d. had been tie recommended price by the 

 producer and the consumers' price 2s., you after- 

 wards came to have some knowledge of what the 

 cost of production had been during that period, did 

 you not? Yes. 



2681. Which was nearer right of those two figures 

 of 2s. 6d. and 2s.? If you ask me now, I am in- 

 clined to think that what we fixed was alx>ut right. 



2682. Was not the Report of the Travelling Com- 

 mission over that? Yes, the Travelling Cr.nmiission's 

 Report is over that, certainly. 



2683. So that the producers with the information 

 at their disposal were more nearly right than their 

 critics? I am afraid I am not accepting wholly 

 the Report of the Travelling Commission, who them- 

 selves took 2d. off the price given to them. 



2684. I hold no brief for the Travelling Com- 

 mission, but I think it is pretty generally recognised 

 that the price milk had to be produced at last 

 winter was a price entailing a very general loss? 

 That is news to me. 



2685. I mean if you leave out of account the 

 prices obtained in the summer? Really that is en- 

 tirely news to me, and it is not my view. 



2686. I just want to put one or two practical 

 questions about the question to which you have 

 referred a good deal regarding the price to bo 

 allowed for so-called farm, produced food. Is it in 

 practice possible to differentiate betwoen tho price 

 paid to a man according as ho feeds his cows on 

 material grown by himself or material which he 

 has bought? It is" not directly po-.il>li 



2687. Therefore you have to disregard the ques- 

 tion whether a man has bought his hay, or whether 

 he has crown it himself, in fixing your [ rico? In 

 the individual case, yes; but you can, of course, 

 differentiate by districts. You could differentiate 

 between the price paid in a district in which the 

 farmers mainly have to rely upon bought food and 

 those districts" in which they mainly have to rely 

 upon their own farm produced food. 



2688. In the same district yon have people follow- 

 ing opposite practices? Yes, but there may be dis- 

 tricts following predominant customs. 



2689. It has not hitherto been your practice in 

 deal with districts on that basis? We have differ- 

 entiated milk prices between different districts. 



2690. Yes. but you have not taken as a basis of 

 that kind the character of the industry in doinp it? 

 Yes. I think that the higher price allowed to 

 industrial district* is based very largely upon the 

 way in which milk has to be produced. 



2691. These are special exceptions which have l-een 

 made? It applies to most of Yorkshire. 



2692. That was not the reason in the rrf> of 

 Yorkshire. Tho reason given was quito different. 



It was that the atmospheric, conditions uero un- 

 favourable, and so on:- That leadtt to their laving 

 I in a different wa\. 



' I li.i\.- nut heard it o said in evidence It 



.icii on tiie ground that it wax an i.nla\o nal.lt 

 district, Imt ajiart Irom that yon ri ih.it, 



>. n the whole, the cases must be taken togcth 

 decidedly. 



. In practice, it it is the policy <>l U' Ministry 

 to increnso aii'i < the supply of milk, that 



policy would lead to rather encouraging the consump- 

 ti. in ..i h.i\ or an\ other food for that purpose, would 

 it not ' > es. 



. You would i..-> m-e, I suppose, that a 

 farmer in deciding what he Mould do with I is hav 

 will discuss with himsolf the question what will 

 pay him best? Yes, that among other questions. 



2696. Yes, among other questions; but that would 

 be one of In- c hid considerations if he has to live 

 by his business. Therefore, so far as that g<n>. you 

 are handicapping milk production if you make other 

 uses of hay more profitable? Yes. 



2697. Do you discriminate against home produced 

 food in the" case of beef production ? How do you 

 mean discriminate against it." 



2698. Do you reckon that a man is to do without 

 profit on the consumption of his home-grown food* in 

 beef production? I- do not know that that question 

 has ever been raised in the fixing of the meat prices. 



2699. If it has not been raised, it will not be long 

 before it is. Supposing you have a man devoting his 

 whole concern to the production of hay, and another 

 devoting only one half of hie lime and capital to hay 

 production, and the other half to his dairy. If all 

 hay is saleable which is the hypothesis then tho 

 man who sells all his hay at a full price is allowed 

 to take a profit on his whole concern, whereas the 

 man who has to use half of it for dairying and has 

 to reckon it in the cost of production without a profit 

 is to have no profit so far as that half is concerned? 

 Yes; but all hay is not saleable at a full price. 



2700. That is a question which can only be deter- 

 mined by testing the facts? Quite so. 



2701. "Mr. Ashby: When tho Department present 

 their estimates or records of costs, is there not a 

 tendency to present such estimates or records showing 

 the high costs rather than a fair sample' Quito 

 inevitablv I do not mean in deliberate unfairness 

 at all. 



27(12. No, but there is an inevitable tendency that 

 way? Yes, absolutely inevitable. 



2703. As to another question which was asked hy 

 Dr. Douglasi, is there not a far greater danger that 

 the uneconomical producer will he retained under any 

 system of controlled prices rather tlian that the 

 economical producer will become a whipping-lioy and 

 be attacked for making abnormal profits? There are 

 both dangers, I think, but I certainly think that tho 

 tendency of control is to maintain the uneconomical 

 producer through the difficulty of fixing prices low 

 enough. 



2704. Do you think there is a greater tendency to 

 retain the uneconomical producer under control than 

 under ordinary market conditions? There certainly 

 has been during tho war. 



2705. Under control there is no effective way of 

 getting rid of the uneconomical producer? It 

 depends upon whether public opinion will allow you 

 to fix prices low enough to nc|iiee/.t> him out. That 

 is an effective way of getting rid of him, but it is very 

 difficult to get public opinion to that point. 



2706. When a Department has tho duty of fixing 

 a controlled price, or has the duty of administering 

 a guaranteed price, would you regard it as an 

 advantage that the Department should also have 

 power to require a given number of farmers to keep 

 accounts according to a method laid down by tho 

 Department, and to require them to produce those 

 accounts on demand? 



The Chnirman:l think Sir William answered that 

 hy saving that the Costings Department was created 

 for that purpose. 



27(17. Mr. .\. thlii/: The Costings Department has no 

 power to require that those accounts be either kept or 

 produced. It can only work on tho goodwill of the 

 fanners, which for certain pur|>oses may lie sufficient. 



