MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



109 



13 August, 1919.] 



SIR WILLIAM H. BEVERIDGK, K.C.B. 



[Continued. 



but which in the case of the extension of guaranteed 

 prices may not be a sufficient protection to the public. 

 Would you regard it as an advantage to the Depart- 

 ment which has to administer guaranteed or 

 controlled prices for it to be provided with the power 

 to demand that accounts be kept according to methods 

 laid down by the Department, and to produce those 

 accounts on the demand of the Department.' 1 doubt 

 whether it would be worth while giving it a statutory 

 power, enforceable by fine or imprisonment, to m;>.ke 

 a farmer keep accounts, because a farmer keeping 

 them under that duress would not keep them very 

 well. But I do agree that one of the principles of 

 control should be the establishment of a really strong 

 Costings Department, and that you might endeavour 

 in some way to .make the benefit of receiving your 

 guaranteed price dependent fcpon keeping accounts 

 but you would have to proceed very gradually in that 

 direction. 



2708. Mr. Lang ford : You said that the money that 

 was paid out by the Government to enable the loaf 

 to be sold at 9d. went into the farmer's pocket. Did 

 you mean the English farmer? There >s a sense in 

 which it went into the farmer's pocket both at home 

 and abroad. Let me repeat what I said. I believe 

 he would have got that money, and possibly more 

 money, anyhow. 



2709. May I put it in this way : When the farmer's 

 crops were controlled take, for instance, wheat we 

 have it in evidence from you that it was controlled 

 because his wheat was being sold at 90s. per quarter? 

 Yes. 



2710. I think the first control brought it down in 

 round figures to 70s. or less than 70s.? I think it 

 was 70s., but I do not remember exactly. 



2711. In any case it brought it down quite a con- 

 siderable amount? Yes. 



2712. Approximately at that time the subs : dy was 

 given to the millers to enable the flour to be made 

 and the loaf sold at 9d.? Yes. 



2713. If that is so. will you explain to me and the 

 Commission how it is that by control and by that 

 subsidy any of the money went into the English 

 farmer's pocket? Is it not this : the English farmer 

 would have got that amount of money in one way or 

 another the consumer would have paid it to him. 

 The State stepped in and said to the farmer : " we 

 are going to save the consumer, and we are going to 

 pay you." I do not want to suggest for a moment 

 that in that case the State came in and gave itlie 

 farmer something which he would have got if the 

 State had stayed out. 



2714. I suggest to you. instead of the State giving 

 the farmer anything, that in consequence of the 

 farmer's price being controlled at less than he could 

 have got at that timo in the open market, the farmer 

 gave the State something? I agree the farmer cer- 

 tainly lost something by the whole transaction. 



2715. Is it within your knowledge that at the time 

 the Government gave the subsidy to the millers there 

 were some bakers in England selling bread at 9d. .1 

 loaf at a profit? I do not know if they were selling 

 it nt 9d. I know some bakers were selling at much 

 below what others were charging something very 

 near 9d. 



2716. I put it to you that there were bakers 

 notably co-operative- societies I can give instances 

 if necessary who were selling bread at 9d. a loaf 

 and at a profit, and the subsidy gave them an extra 

 18s., I think it was. a sack profit. Now I want to 

 ask yon something about feeding stuffs. You have 

 told us that it w;is not your Department that was 

 responsible for the decontrol of feeding stuffs. Is 

 that so? Certainly the initiation in decontrol did 

 not romo from us. 



2717. Mr Huberts, the Food Controller, is a member 

 of the Cairn. : 



2718. C'ould you inform us whether he protested 

 against feedin'r stuffs heine decontrolled? 



C'Knirmnn : That has been dealt with already, and I 

 rannot hive rritirism of the Cabinet. 



'J71!i Mf. f.'i'iii/iinl f will put the ouestinn in an- 

 otli'T form. I will take linseed oil cake. That was 



controlled by your Department at 19 per ton. Is it 

 within your knowledge that when it was decontrolled 

 it fell to 16 per ton? For a brief space of time it 

 fell. 



2720. I was one of the fortunate ones who bought 

 it at 16 a ton. I put it to you that if your Depart- 

 ment had had Treasury sanction, you could have gone 

 on the market and purchased the whole of the feeding 

 stuffs at 16 a ton, which would have enabled you to 

 sell them to the farmers to produce milk? I do not 

 know whether we coxild have got it all. I expect if 

 we had gone in, the price would have gone up some- 

 what ; but we could have bought it cheaply no doubt. 



2721. Is it a fact that when it was decontrolled, 

 speculators went into the market and collared it? 

 Are you thinking of cake or of linseed oil? 



2722. At any rate, cakes are composed of the bye- 

 products of other things? -When we decontrolled oil 

 seeds, undoubtedly there was a lot of speculation. 



2723. Can you tell us what the price of linseed oil 

 cake is to-day? 25 is our price at the mill. 



2724. Can you tell us approximately what the 

 average cost of getting that from the mill to the 

 farmer's premises would be? No, I am afraid I can- 

 not tell you that. I expect you know that better than 

 I do. 



2725. Bran at the moment, I believe, is controlled. 

 Can you tell me at what price? No; I am sorry I 

 cannot tell you that from memory. 



2726. Will you take it from me that it is con- 

 trolled at the mill at 11? Yes, I will take it from 

 you. 



2727. Will you agree with me that whilst bran is 

 controlled at the mill at 11, farmers cannot obtain it 

 under 14? I can neither say yes nor no to that, I 

 am afraid. I should have to enquire. 



2728. Will you agree with me when I tell you that 

 I bought bran yesterday at 14 a ton? I should 

 certainly accept your statement. 



2729. If it costs 3 a ton to get bran from the mill 

 to the farmer's premises, is it fair to assume that it 

 would cost equally as much to get linseed oil cake 

 from the place of manufacture to the farm? I am 

 afraid you are more of an expert in these things 

 than I am. 



2730. I want to point out that it is not merely the 

 farmer who is to blame for high prices, and that 

 there are other elements. Assuming it cost 3 a ton 

 to get cake from the manufacturer to the farmer, the 

 price to the farmer would be 28 a ton? If it does 

 cost that, yes. 



2731. I think you will agree, home produced foods 

 being extremely short, it will be very necessary for 

 the farmer who is going to produce either beef 01 

 milk to use an abnormal quantity if he can obtain 

 it of purchased foods? I should think that is true 



.'7.'il'. Do you agree that a rise of price from 16 

 a ton to 28 would be an important factor in increas- 

 ing the price of milk for the winter months? Very 

 important. 



2733. Will you agree with me that it might have 

 been avoided to that extent? It is so difficult to say 

 what might have been. I think it is possible, if there 

 had been no breach in the continuity of control, prices 

 might have been lower how much lower I do not 

 know. 



2734. I think you will agree that farmers as such 

 have never asked for anything to be controlled? I 

 do not think that is universally true. 



2735. The Board of Agriculture themselves are 

 against control? -Yes, but the Board of Agriculture 

 have not always agreed with the farmers. 



2736. I believe your Department made a very big 

 profit last year? It made a big gross profit. 



2737. The amount you took out of it enhanced the 

 price to the consumer? No more than any other 

 item in the cost of the article. You are referring to 

 our gross profit, a lot of which goes to reserve, and 

 there is the cost of administration, which is a neces- 

 sary part of all costs. 



(The Witnest withdrew.) 



