MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



Ill 



13 August, 1919.J 



SIR JAMES WILSON, K.C.S.I. 



[Continued. 



considerably above the minimum rates; 1 I have not 

 very complete evidence, because the Central Wages 

 Committee has not an opportunity of rapidly col- 

 lecting information as to actual wages paid. 



2753. Will you put into the Commission when you 

 can such information as you possess? Certainly; and 

 the Board of Agriculture are, I believe, considering 

 the advisability of collecting accurate information all 

 over Scotland, which they alone are in a position to 

 do. 



2754. Is it the general fact that the actual wages 

 are several shillings a week above the minimum rate? 

 A good many shillings, I should say. 



2755. An average of 5s. ? Bather more than that. 

 l'75(i. What do you suppose is the highest actual 



wage?-- Somewhere about 60s. a week. 



2757. Including the value of the house and perqui- 

 sites, but that is for married men? That is for mar- 

 ried men, and in some cases for unmarried men, but 

 that is rather exceptional. 



2758. Do you think in fixing these rates regard is 

 had to the prices of agricultural products and the 

 profits of the industry? Do you mean in fixing the 

 actual rates that are paid or the minimum rates? 



2759. The minimum rates? Yes, we do pay regard 

 to the cost of living and to prices. 



2760. I do not suppose you paid any regard to tho 

 prices of grain in the Corn Production Act? No. 



2761. But actual ruling prices? Yes; not so much 

 as affecting the fanner, but as affecting the man and 

 his family. 



2762. That is what I want to get from you : was 

 it the cost of living you took chiefly into considera- 

 tion? Yes, that was the chief element. We took 

 the prices published in the Labour (lazette every 

 month the rise of prices compared with the rise in 

 the cost of living. 



2763. It was rather the cost of living than the profits 

 of the industry that you considered? It was certainly 

 more so, but, of course, the farmers on these Com- 

 mittees brought forward the question of the effect it 

 would have on farming, but that was not given so 

 much weight to as the effect it would have on the 

 cost of living of the man and his family. 



2764. What is the lowest minimum fixed for women 

 adult workers? 20s. in most districts. The lowest is 

 18s. iu Fife and Kinross. 



2765. For what hours? That was 9 hours a day 

 in Fife and Kinross. 



2766. 54 hours a week? Yes. 



L'707. That was the lowest minimum fixed? Yes. 



2768. What was the highest minimum fixed : 25s. 

 in Shetland of all places. It was fixed by the Sub- 

 Committee for Shetland, and although it seemed to 

 us in Edinburgh compared with other districts a very 

 high rate, we allowed it to pass because it represented 

 an agreement on both sides on Che local Sub-Com- 

 mittee. 



2769. To go back to the general question, has the 

 question of hours been closely considered in fixing 

 the minimum rates in the case of men? There has 

 been a good deal of discussion about it. Shall I give 

 you tho history of it? 



2770. I do not know that \ve want that at length, but 

 taking it generally has the minimum wage been fixed 

 for any other than the customary period of service? 

 During tho war it was fixed on the customary hours. 

 I myself was strongly opposed to any limitation of 

 hours, or any definition of hours which might lead to 

 less work being done during the war. 



2771. Were the customary hours on the whole about 

 52 to 54 a week? More than that. The customary 

 hours before the war over a great part of Scotland 

 were 10 hours a day BIX days a week. 



2772. Sixty hours? Yes, over a considerable part 

 Scotland. 



2~1'.\. Since then what has happened? They are 

 being reduced now partly by agreement. After the 

 war the question came up again, and by recent Orders 

 of the Central Committee the hours are being limited 

 for the purpose of reckoning the minimum wage. Of 

 course, that does not force a limitation of hours upon 

 the employer or his men, but for the purpose of the 

 minimum wage we fixed a definite number of hours 

 less than the old customary hours. 



, 25126 



2771. You have told us that there was a strong 

 tendency to disagree among the local representatives. 

 That shows that there has been no kind of collusion 

 on the part of the two sets of representatives to set 

 up a high rate of wages in the hope of getting some- 

 thing out of the Government by way of guarantee or 

 of compensation? There has been no such collusion. 

 I am sure. 



Chairman: I shall oe glad if you will kindly pro- 

 ceed now. with the reading of your statement. Sir 

 James. 



Witness : I go on to say : The power of fixing 

 a minimum rate of wages rests, in the first in- 

 stance, with the District Committee, which is re- 

 quired to report ite decision to the Central Com- 

 mittee, and unless, within a period prescribed by 

 the Board of Agriculture as three months,' that de- 

 cision is disallowed by the Central Committee, the 

 minimum rate fixed by the District Committee be- 

 comes legally enforceable under the Act. At this 

 stage the Central Committee has no power to modify 

 the order of the District Committee they can only 

 either (1) disallow it, (2) resolve not to disallow it, 

 or (3) pass no order and so leave it to come into 

 force on the expiry of the three mouths. If the 

 Central Committee disallow the order and so cancel 

 it. they communicate their decision, with the reasons 

 for it, to the District Committee, who are then 

 given 21 days within which to pasi. a revised order 

 fixing anew the minimum rate which has been dis- 

 allowed. This revised order has to be reported to 

 the Central Committee, who again are given 21 

 days within which to disallow it. If they do not 

 disallow the revised order within the period, it 

 comes into force: but if they do disallow it, ifc is 

 in effect cancelled. If the result of this procedure 

 is that any class of worker in the district is left 

 without any rate applicable to it, then the Hoard 

 of Agriculture, under the powers vested in thorn by 

 the schedule, hold that the District Committee have 

 failed to fix a rate which they were required to fix, 

 and refer the fixing of the rate to the Central Com- 

 mittee, who thereupon exercise all the powers of 

 the Agricultural Wages Board as regards fixing that 

 rate. Then as to the method of working and the 

 rates fixed for male workers. At first there was 

 a wide gulf between the views of the employers and 

 of the workers in the District Committees as to what 

 minimum rates they should fix, the general idea 

 of the employers being that for men over 18 years 

 of age a flat rate of something like 80s. a w<ek (in- 

 cluding the value of benefits and advantages) should 

 be fixed ; while the workers usually stood out for a 

 flat rate of 45s. a week. In most important cases 

 the Chairman of the District Committ.ee was unable 

 to get the two sides to come to an agreement, and 

 had to give the decision himself. When theso de- 

 cisions came before the Central Committee, it ap- 

 peared that there was a similar divergence of views 

 there between the employers' representatives and the 

 workers' representatives ; and as, in most oases, one 

 of the two women members voted with the employers 

 and the other with the workers, it was often the 

 Chairman's vote which really decided the question. 

 (It was only rarely that, when the Chairman had exer- 

 cised his vote as a member, the voting was equal, BO 

 that he had to exercise his power as Chairman to 

 decide the question as he thought fit, in the case of an 

 equality of votes. On the District Committees the 

 Chairman has no deliberative vote, nor a casting 

 vote either. If there is an equality of votes he 

 does not get a castm^ vote, but he has power to 

 decide the question as he thinks fit. On tho Central 

 Committee, on the other hand, the Chairman has 

 a deliberative vote and may give his vote on any 

 question that arises, and if there is an equality of 

 votes then he does not necessarily exercise a casting 

 vote, but may decide the question as he thinks fit. 

 On the District Committees very often the Chairman 

 had to decide the question, because there was an 

 equality of votes. On the Central Committee I 

 generallv gave my vote either on one side or the 

 other, a'nd that very often carried the day. There 

 was hardly ever an equality vote, so I hardly ever 

 had to give an individual decision, which the Chair- 

 man of tho District Committee very often has to 



