11 1 



li-'YAI. 



"S A(JRICt T LTURE. 



is . 



, r.-r.t ; 



SIR JAM i- \\ ion, K.C.8.I. 



[Continued. 



8836. Mr. .Ithby: You have explained the dill.- 

 between the constitution of the English District ( .-MI 

 mittees and the Central Committee snd District 

 Committees in Scotland. Was the roaaoo of tho 

 appointment of these District Committees because of 

 ili.- passing of the Corn Production Act? Yea, I 

 believe it was chiefly owing t> Unit. That was a 

 matter which was discussed when tho Bill was before 

 Parliament and I had nothing to do with it then. 



2336. From your experience of watching the work- 

 ing of the two systems in England and in Scotland, 

 hare you any opinion to offer AS to their working? 

 I am not prepared to say that the system in Scotland 

 should be extended to England. The circumstances 

 differ. 



3837. Do you think the difference in the constitution 

 of the Committees in the two countries has any effect 

 upon the rates of wages fixed? I do not know that 

 the difference in the constitution would have much 

 effect in that way. Tie difference in the persons 

 elected or appointed, I think, has made some 

 difference. 



3838. 1 1 is sometimes suggested that in the absence 

 of a third party in the constitution, two sides might, 

 so to speak, put their heads together and raise wages 

 to the disadvantage of the public. Do you think 

 there is any great danger of that happening? None 

 in Scotland at the present moment. 



2829. Do yon think when both sides have to meet 

 with a Chairman that they elect, their considerations 

 of the factors in the determination of the wage arc 

 much nearer to the essential economic condition of the 

 industry than when a third party is present? I am 

 hardly prepared to say that. They listen to each 

 other's views and objections, and gradually learn a 

 good deal from each other. I have seen evidence of 

 their coming nearer to a common agreement even 

 where they have not been able to agree. I think 

 it is a matter of time, and it is a very great 

 advantage for them to be brought together and to 

 listen each to what the other has got to say; but I 

 think there is a great advantage in having inde- 

 pendent persons who, so to speak, hold the balance 

 between them. 



3630 You really could not indicate any effect on 

 the rates fixed that might be due to the difference in 

 constitution? I am not familiar with the actual 

 working of the English Agricultural Wages Board and 

 its Committees, but I should imagine that the 

 appointed members have in Kni;ind a very much 

 larger say in the actual decision regarding the 

 in iui mum rate than the appointed persons have on 

 the Committee in Scotland. 



3831. Mr. Dallas: Just following up Mr. Ashliv's 

 question, you said it seemed to you that in England 

 the appointed members have a very much larger say 

 in tho fixing of the minimum rate than the appointed 

 mom berg in Scotland do. Previously you stated that 

 on very few occasions whatever have the employers 

 and their workers agreed, and that any decision that 

 was arrived at was the decision of the Chairman of the 

 District Committee sent' on to the Central Committee!- 



often as regards minimum rates. 



3832. It would seem that the appointed member in 

 Scotland or the Chairman has a very large say? The 

 C)iuirm:in is elected by the Committee ititolf. 



2H:. Yes, but it is more often a matter of his 

 decision than the derision of the Committee itself? 

 Yes. 



3834. On the Central Committee you said you very 

 seldom had to exercise your casting vote, but that 

 you voted when any question came up. The two sides 

 are equal plus two women, one the Duchess of Atholl 

 and the other evidently a working class woman? 

 "- she is not a working class woman. She is a 

 woman who is very much interested in the working 

 classed. 



2835. The same thing possibly. One woman accord- 

 ing to your evidence votes on one side, nnd the other 

 on the other side? Often, not always. 



2036. So that the decision again in that case is tho 



decision of the Chairman, although he does not exer- 



i canting vote? I nm one of the majority. My 



vote nometimes goes with the employers -and sometime"! 



with the men. 



2837. I do not wunt to nuggeat that you are biassed, 

 but would you say that more often you see greater 

 reason on the emjil ih.ui on tlu> workers' 



side? I think on the whole I have seen it more often 

 on the employers' side. 



3838. Would you give us an estimate of what the 

 stable work is? You have talked about 54 hours plu> 

 stable work. How long does stable work take per 

 lav : I have made a number of estimates and asked 

 farmers and mon about it, and I think a fair estimate 

 is an hour a day. 



3830 That destroys the statement that the working 

 week in Scotland is 00 hours, because on to the 60 

 hours you have to add another hour's work a day. 

 making 56 hours? Yes, for the ploughmen. 



3840. It was the ploughman we were talking about 

 the 42s. wage for a 50 hours' week, plus stable work. 

 You told us that that was for a 50 hours' week, 

 whereas as a matter of fact it would average out on 

 your own figures at 56 hours a week? 57. Perhaps 

 you did not quite understand. First we fix a rate for 

 all men of 36s. Then we say if a man is a ploughman 

 or a cattleman or a shepherd, he gets 6s more. That 

 makes 42s. So that if a man is not in charge of 

 animals, his minimum wage is 36s. only. 



3841. How would you account for this, as it seems 

 to me, very extraordinary state of affairs that the 

 minimum wage has no relationship to actual facto 

 that is to say, you tell us about a wage of 36s.. 

 hut the actual wage paid and received is very much 

 higher? Will you permit me to read a paragraph 

 I wrote on that subject in reply to that question? 



2842. Certainly." The minimum rates of wages 

 have in Scotland generally been fixed with the object 

 of securing to the ordinary worker in agriculture n 

 sufficient wage to enable 'him to maintain himself 

 and his family at a reasonable standard of living: 

 but it has been borne in mind that they will be 

 applicable in practice not only to the ordinary worker 

 but also to the least efficient, so that the effect of 

 fixing them too high would probably be to reduce the 

 number of workers employed on farming, and to make 

 it impossible for the less efficient workers to obtain 

 employment in agriculture at all. No attempt has 

 therefore been made by most Committees to fix the 

 minimum rates* as tho standard rates to be actually 

 paid to the ordinary worker. These standard rates 

 have been settled from time to time according to the 

 relation between the supply of labour and the demand 

 for it, either by private agreement between employer 

 and worker or by collective bargaining at conferences 

 hold between representatives of the Farmers' Union 

 and the Farm Servants' Union. In several district* 

 these conferences have been able to agree, upon a 

 joint recommendation as to actual wanes, which has 

 boon generally accepted and acted upon by the em- 

 ployers and workers of the areas concerned, thus pre- 

 venting much individual haggling nnd some un- 

 necessary changes of employment So far as my in- 

 formation goes, I believe that during last winter the 

 prevalent rate of wages actually paid (including the 

 value of tho benefits') to the ordinary ploughman, shep 

 herd, or cattleman in the Lowland's of Scotland was 

 about 50s. a week in some districts more, in some 

 less. Since Whitsunday there has lieon a rise in 

 actual wages in some areas, but not in all. and cases 

 are now to be found where ordinary ploughmen are 

 now petting as much as 60s. a week all told. Thn-. 

 generally speaking, in Scotland the present actual 

 wages are considerably higher than the minimum 

 rates, and one consequence of this is flint there have 

 been so far few complaints under the Act, and no 

 prosecutions. 



2843. T was going to come, to that. You are asked 

 by the Government, according to the Corn Production 

 Act, to fix a wage that would be adequate to promote 

 efficiency and to enable a man in an ordinary case 

 ta maintain himself and his wife nnd family in 

 accordance with such standard of comfort as mav lie 

 reasonable in relation to the nature of his occupation. 

 How do you reconcile that with tho fixing of a wage 

 nt 30s. a week? In the opinion of some of those 

 District Committees at nil event*. 30s. a week was 

 sufficient for the ordinary workman. 



2844. To keep himsolf and his wife and family in a 

 reasonable state of comfort? Yes. 



