118 



liuVAI. 0>MM1>M"N "N AGRICULTURE. 



.,utl, 1919.] 



SIR JAMES WIUSON, K.I - I 



<m.'<<. 



in England, which are practical rates. Why do you 

 not adopt the same principle in Scotland? Perhaps 

 it is because of the more logical character of ih<- 

 Scotch. We were told in the Act to fix a minimum 

 rate. 



3945 A. 1 urn not going to say that I disagree with 

 you. In dealing with the question of hours I know 

 you have dealt with them why did you object to the 

 fixing of hours at the inception of those Committees? 

 1 personally P. 



2U45B. Yea, or the Committees ? Practically all 

 through the farmers have wished not to have any 

 definite number of hours fixed. They wanted to have 

 the minimum wage reckoned on the customary hours 

 whatever they were. They said " Alter the rates of 

 wages if you like, but do not touch our hours." All 

 the farmers objected to that at first. In certain cases 

 the workers on the District Committees wished to have 

 a definite number of hours fixed in fact I may say 

 the workers' representatives even on the Central Com- 

 mittee all through wished to have a definite number 

 of hours fixed. In two districts the Chairman of the 

 District Committee fixed his minimum rate of wages 

 on a definite number of hours, following the English 

 example 54 hours in summer at that time and 48 

 in winter. That came before the Central Committee. 

 We had discretion to disallow it. There was a great 

 discussion about it. and at that time during the war 

 I gave my vote against a definite number of hours 

 on the ground, as I have already explained, that I 

 thought it might have the effect of reducing the 

 actual amount of labour done in tho field, and that 

 nothing of that kind should be done during the war. 



2946. Could you tell the Commission where you got 

 the idea from originally as regards customary hours 

 you have said " so far as customary hours are con- 

 cerned."? Farmers have always talked about cus- 

 tomary hours. 



2947. I was not aware that there were any cus- 

 tomary hours; that is why I am asking the question? 

 The farmers on these Committees have put it as the 

 hours customarily worked in the district. 



2948. Could you define what "customary hours" 

 are? They vary very much between one district and 

 another, and even sometimes between one farm and 

 another. 



2949. Should I be correct in saying that in one 

 parish in Scotland there might be several different 

 customs so far as the number of hours worked are 

 concerned ? Yes, there might be two or three perhaps 

 in one parish. 



2950. So that really in practice " customary hours " 

 cannot be defined? It is difficult to define thorn. 



2951. You really agreed, therefore, to something 

 that could not be defined? My idea then was that the 

 chief object of Part 2 of the Act was to fix wages 

 and not to fix hours; and that it was quite possible to 

 fix minimum rates of wages and leave the question of 

 hours untouched for the time being, and that that 

 was the best thing to do during the war. 



2952. Can you tell us how you could fix a minimum 

 rate without fixing hours? It is quite possible, is it 

 notP A minimum rate means that whatever tho 

 number of hours worked during tho week may be, 

 the man must get 4()s. a week or whatever it is. 

 whether he works 50 hours or 10. 



2953. The difficulty is that if an employer failed 

 to comply with it a prosecution could not follow? 

 Surely, if you lay down that a man must get 40s. 

 a week whatever number of hours he works? 



I. If the hours are not fixed he might have :> 

 work 18 hours a day? Then the farmer could not 

 l>p fined so long as he paid the man 40s. a week. 



2955. Do you not think you "could have fixed a 

 standard number of hours and then fixed an overtime 

 rate over that standard number of hours. Have you 

 any overtime rates at all? Yes. That is what we are 

 doing now. We are fixing a certain number of 

 hours on which the minimum rate has to be reckoned, 

 ii nd overtime after that number of hours at the rate 

 of time and a half for any time worked over that 

 mmiber of hours. 



'.TI.V;. When the Committees were first set up did 

 you fix overtime rates- V,. \\>- left that to In- dis- 

 posed of later on. 



29o7. You did not anticipate overtime at all? 

 If a custom can bo proved and a man w<u k> 

 . li.-in the customary hours then he ix entitled 



to overtime rates for the time worked over those 



hours. 



2958. What rates did you fix for overtime? 

 Latterly ? 



2959. No, at tho beginning? In Forfar and Perth 

 the District Committees themselves fixed the over- 

 time rates which 1 have mentioned here. They were 

 less than time and a half. 



3960. If you put the table in it will be quite suffi- 

 cient? Yes, it is among these papers here. 



2961. With regard to your statement about the 

 standard of comfort, I happen to be a Lowlander, 

 and I certainly am not going to be satisfied, and 

 never have been satisfied, with a lower standard of 

 comfort than the Perthshire worker or the Forfarshire 

 worker. 



2962. Why do you distinguish between the two 

 classes of workers geographically from the point of 

 view of standard of comfort? Because it is an actual 

 fact that there is a great difference between the 

 standard of comfort of the workers in different parts. 



2963. Is that really your opinion? Yes, that is 

 my opinion. 



2964. I want to make it clear that we in the Low- 

 lauds demand an equal standard of comfort with 

 those in Perthshire and Forfarshire? In the 

 Lothians, do you say? 



2965. Let us take the county of Lanarkshire. Do 

 you think that the workers in Lanarkshire demand 

 a lower standard of comfort than the workers in 

 Perthshire or Forfarshire? No; I should say they 

 were equal from that point of view I think they are 

 about equal. 



2966. I thought you said that in answer to a 

 previous question? No, I put thorn upon a leve.1, 

 but when you go to the Highlands it is a different 

 matter. 



2967. Do you think that the workers in Peeblesshire. 

 for example, demand a lower standard of comfort 

 than the workers' in Forfarshiro and Perthshire? 

 Yes, I think they do, because they are further away 

 from the mines and the great industries and shipping, 

 and other things, at which workers in other districts 

 can get a higher cash wage. 



2968. That is your opinion ? Yes ; I think so. As 

 a matter of fact, wages are higher where there are 

 other industries in competition with agriculture, and 

 the standard of comfort is correspondingly higher. 



2969. Can you adduce any other evidence Apart 

 from your personal opinion that that is so? It 

 follows, does it not, from the fact that the wages 

 as a rule, are higher in those areas than they arc 

 in the more rural and more distant areas. 



2970. Let us come down to the borders of Kngljind- 

 I think the wages of a border ploughman are lower 

 than those of a Lanarkshire ploughman. 



2971. Are they? Yes. 



9972. Is that a fact? As far as 1 know, that is 

 so at any rate, there is a considerable differon- < 



2973. Anyhow, it is your opinion that a Lowlander 

 demands a lower standard of comfort than the men 

 further north H- --No. I say that tho J^owland agricul- 

 tural worker expects a much higher standard of 

 comfort than the Highlander does, or h.-is hitherto 

 done for generations. The Lowlander has for very 

 long time had a much higher i\age than the High- 

 lander has been content with. I have been in India 

 most of niv lite, ami I have known millions of people 

 there who are quite content with a standard of com- 

 fort represented by 4d. per day. 



2974. All I can say is until I was well on in my 

 nineteenth year I lived in l.anarks'liire. and I know 

 something about the conditions that prevail there 

 In reference to the question put to you by Mr. 

 Dallas and your answer to it. if that is line, do 

 you agree that if the Wages Committees went out 

 of existence altogether in Scotland, they would never 

 lie missed so far ns any benefit to the workers is 

 concerned:-' That is putting it rather too i 



liecanse a certain nnnilier of n although I admit 



ihat il is a coni|i:iral ivcly Miiall number have re- 

 ceived higher wiij-i's than they did before owing to 



