MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



133 



19 August, 1919.] 



SIR THOMAS H. MIDDLETON, K.B.E., O.B. 



[Continued. 



opinion, will be the effect on the future development 

 of the agricultural industry of the fact that farmers 

 have had to buy their holdings, and put their capital 

 not only into the shape of land, but also into their 

 industry a double employment of their capital? In 

 my opinion it is very undesirable that a farmer's 

 limited capital should be expended in the purchase 

 of land. 



3253. It is a historical fact that they are doing it? 

 That is so. 



3254. Would you be in favour of some such system 

 as prevails in all other countries of the world, of a 

 special scheme of financing farmers? Have we not 

 at the present time got certain credits available? 



325.5. No, not for the purpose of buying land? No; 

 but when the land has been bought, to enable farmers 

 to secure implements and so forth. 



3256. That was the case ; I do not know whether it 

 is in operation now? I think it is. 



3257. You said that you were not in favour of 

 splitting up farms above 300 acres. Do you mean to 

 suggest that these farms of 300 acres and over produce 

 more per acre or per given area than smaller farms? 

 I think on the average that the farms of over 300 

 acres are the most productive in the country that 

 is to say, if you compare a similar set of farms of 

 300 acres and over with a set of 300 acres and under, 

 you will find that the produce per acre from equal 

 land is greater in the case of the larger farms. 



3258. As an alternative method to the guaranteed 

 prices, you suggest certain abatements, and so on? 

 Yes. 



3259. In your book which you have before you, you 

 point out the remarkable difference in the case of 

 the farmers of Germany as compared with the farmers 

 of this country, and you say that about 90 per cent, 

 roughly of the farmers of Germany farm their own 

 land? That is BO. 



3260. Whereas about 90 per cent, of our farmers are 

 tenant farmers? That is BO. 



3261. Do you not recognise that anything in the 

 shape of a guarantee of prices, or of abatements, or 

 such expedients, will have an entirely different effect 

 in this country as compared with Germany because 

 of that fundamental fact? The influence would bo 

 greater if there were ownership in this country un- 

 doubtedly, but the degree to which it would be greater 

 is a matter of opinion, and very hard to form an 

 estimate with regard to. I agree with you that in 

 the case of ownership the incentive given by a 

 guarantee would be greater. 



3262. Is it not a fact admitted practically by all 

 authorities that in the long run the profit resulting 

 from all these abatements and guarantees tend to go 

 into the pockets of the landowner, and to leave the 

 tenant in exactly the same position as he was before? 

 In theory it is bound to go there, although, I think, 

 as a matter of fact, it very seldom reaches their 

 pockets. 



3263. You speak in your evidence of the cost of the 

 growth of wheat, and the rent, rates and taxes, and 

 so on, but you only allow 5s. per acre, if I understand 

 rightly, for the increased cost? Yes; of course that 

 does not include Income Tax. 



3264. You said that the rent, rates and taxes pre- 

 war came to 1 5s., and that post war they came to 

 1 10s.? Yes, that is about it. 



3265. Do you take note in those figures of the 

 tremendous increase in the case of a farmer who has 

 bought his farm? Farmers all over the country are 

 buying their own farms, and I should like to know 

 whether you have taken note in your figures of the 

 rise, not exactly in the shape of rent, but in the shape 

 of the interest on the capital expended in the purchase 

 of those farms, which, of course, will have to be added 

 to the rent? No, that is not taken into account 

 here. 



3260. Mr. Duncan: I think you stated, referring to 

 the farmers, that they would like to be loft alone 

 and not interfered w ith by 'the State. Would you 



25 12.-. 



mind elaborating that? What I meant by that was 

 this : If the farmer felt that he was free from any sort 

 of public responsibility, and had no guarantee, he 

 would probably run his land down to grass, and would 

 do as well as he would do under some system of 

 guarantee, under which he was endeavouring to main- 

 tain as large an area under tillage as this country 

 could maintain. 



3267. Is that the only respect in which you think 

 he would like to be left alone? That is what was in 

 my mind. 



3268. You have already said you do not propose 

 tj couple with the guarantee any compulsion? That 

 is so, but I think there will always be considerable 

 pressure upon the farming population to increase their 

 arable holdings that is the purpose of any guarantee. 



3269. If there is to be no compulsion, in what way 

 could the pressure be exercised upon the farmers? 

 Only by what you may call moral pressure. 



3270. Do you think that moral pressure is likely 

 to interfere much with the farmer if he finds that ho 

 can farm more profitably by grass than by tillage 

 with a guarantee of 60s. ? I think myself that when 

 the farmer has got his land into tillage, and has got 

 accustomed to tillage farming, he will find that the 

 profits of tillage are quite equal to his present profits 

 of grass. The difficulty is to secure the change from 

 the grass to the tillage farm. One of the great diffi- 

 culties we had in the case of the Food Production 

 Department was that many of the grass farmers were 

 totally ignorant ol tillage, and managed their land 

 very badly in the first year. But that will pass 

 away and the farmer will become accustomed to 

 tillage, and a certain number of those who attempt 

 it will certainly continue it. You will see that my 

 estimate was that the effect of the guarantee would 

 not be a very large increase. 



3271. The point I am not clear about is whether the 

 farmer should be left alone under your scheme? 

 When I said left alone I was thinking almost entirely 

 of the last year or two, and of the pressure that has 

 been brought to bear on the farmer to do things that 

 he was not keen upon doing. 



3272. So that in fact you propose that he should 

 be left alone in future? I think if there is any 

 guarantee, he will always be urged to adopt a certain 

 system of farming. 



3273. Do you think it likely that farmers, or any 

 other business men, because of urging without any 

 other form of pressure behind them would be inclined 

 to alter their system of farming from any other point 

 of view than from the point of view of making the 

 best out of it for themselves?! think that a great 

 many of them would be inclined to continue tillage 

 which they have begun, and that so long as there was 

 any prospect of that tillage paying them, they would 

 not revert to grass; but, of course, this is a 

 speculative question. 



3274. I notice in your statement here you state 

 that the cost per quarter, assuming a crop of 4$ 

 quarters per acre of 504 Ibs., would be 59s. 2d., 

 whereas the average pre-war cost was 33s. Id. ? Yes. 



3275. And you say that this represents a margin 

 to the farmer, after allowing him interest on his 

 capital and 10s. an acre for wages, of Is. lid. per 

 quarter, or roughly about 8s. an acre? Plus any 

 value he can work out of the straw, which goes 

 mostly in manure, of course. 



3276. During all these years would you say that 

 farming was remunerative? As I have already said, 

 I think that my estimated yield, taking all the con- 

 ditions into consideration, was too low, and that it 

 ought to be 38 bushels. I made this estimate, not 

 for the information of the Commission, but for my own 

 information, and I did not ascertain exactly what the 

 price of wheat was until I had made an estimate of 

 growing. When I made the estimate of the cost 

 of growing and ascertained the price of wheat, I 

 found there was a very narrow margin so narrow a 

 margin that it would not have produced enough profit 

 on a wheat crop if my estimate with regard to the 

 cost of growing wheat was correct, unless there had 

 been a somewhat higher yield. 



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