MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



139 



19 Augutt, 1919.] 



SIR THOMAS H. MIDDLETON, K.B.E., C.B. 



[Continued. 



3442. I suggest to you that the important point 

 with regard to risk is the relative amount of the 

 risk to the profit? It remains much the same. 



3443. No, I think not. Assuming that your average 

 cost of production is to be relied upon, there is now 

 a much greater rate of profit than in pre-war times? 

 Yes. 



3444. Therefore the real risk has diminished, 

 because over a series of years you have greater profits 

 to cover the risk. The profits are -in a much greater 

 proportion now than the risk? Yes, that is so, 

 measured in terms of money, of course. 



3445. So that the total amount of risk in any given 

 year is no greater because of the increase in profits? 

 Over a series of years that is so. 



3446. If the profits now are greater the percentage 

 of risk is less? Yes, over a series of years, and pro- 

 vided you do not get two bad years in succession, 

 which may knock out the farmer altogether. 



3447. In paragraph 13 you say: " The gross value 

 of the produce is more than doubled, the food pro- 

 vided is increased four to eight fold, and the wages 

 fund is increased in a still higher degree." That is 

 with reference to tillage? Yes. 



3448. I can understand that the total amount of 

 money that must be spent in wages on certain arable 

 farms is greater than on certain pasture farms, but 



I think it is rather an important question as to 

 whether the amount per man will be greater or less? 

 As the odds are in favour of grass farming the 

 amount per man will be higher on the grass than on 

 the arable that is the probability. 



3449. The financial interest of both the employer 

 and the employee is to develop grass farming? Yes. 

 If the amount of land were unlimited and the number 

 of persons wanting employment or wanting land was 

 limited then go in for grass farming. 



3450. In your next paragraph you say : "In com- 

 parison with the gross value of the produce, farming 

 capital is very small." Are you thinking of the 

 annual produce? Yes, I am thinking of the average 

 gross value on a four-course rotation, which would be 

 before the war something like 6 10s. or 7. Before 

 the war the capital of the farmer would have been 

 about 8 an acre. 



3451. Would you suggest, comparing agriculture 

 with some other industry, that that statement is 

 true? It is not true. In agriculture, however, your 

 capital is locked up for the year and only turned over 

 onco. In other industries, in which there may be only 

 a small amount of capital, the capital is turned over 

 again' and again in the course of the year. That 

 enables a man with a relatively small sum to carry 

 on a very large business. 



3452. I would like you to go to the end of paragraph 



II which I think contains some very important state- 

 ments. You say: " Much of the farmer's profit goes 

 into the improvement of his land. Improvers of land, 

 whether landlords or tenants, always benefit the com- 

 munity." That is one statement. Then you say: 

 " Very frequently they fail to benefit either them- 

 selves or their heirs." Seeing that in both cases the 

 investment is a private investment, and that the 

 community cannot benefit unless these people benefit, 

 who are the channels between the investment and the 

 community? How do you square the two? I, per- 

 haps, had in mind particular cases there. I had in 

 my mind the case of an ardent land improver who 

 spent a great deal of money on improving his 

 estate. There is no doubt, I think, that the labourers 

 and the farmers on that estate benefited by the sums 

 that were laid out by the improver, but he himself 

 was not benefited, nor have his heirs been benefited. 



3453. I also had in mind certain individual cases. 

 One case is this : A fairly vast estate was owned by a 

 prosperous man in the early 'seventies. He built some 

 verv fine farm buildings for his cattle, buildings more 

 like ecclesiastical buildings than anything else ; the 



iiH'jire is that the rent has never paid him one 

 l>er cent, on Ihe cost of those buildings. He was 



regarded as a great improver at the time, but he did 

 as a matter of fact waste his money, both for himself 

 and for the community? That illustrates the type of 

 improvement in which a great deal of money has been 

 wasted, but there has not been much money wasted 

 in draining and liming in this country, and those are 

 the improvements I had in view chiefly. 



3454. Your statement is really limited to what one 

 might call the tilling improvements? Getting the 

 land into the high condition. 



3455. Mr. Batchelor : In regard to your figures in 

 connection with the rearing and fattening of cattle, 

 am I right in understanding that these figures are all 

 based on cattle which do well? You have made no 

 allowance for deaths? I have made no allowance for 

 wasters ; but I have put in a risk figure. I think I 

 stated that. My own estimate is that in feeding 

 large numbers of cattle you want to allow something 

 like 2 per cent, for risks. 



3456. In your estimate of the cost of production 

 of wheat, would you consider 4 to 4J qrs. to be an 

 average yield per acre on this particular land that 

 you refer to, which I think must be rented at about 

 1 an acre, or do you think it is too high? 25s. it is 

 given at, is it not? 



3457. That is including rates and taxes, and I 

 assume the rent to be about 1? Yes, about 1 

 an acre. 



3458. Would not you assume that an average yield 

 of 4 to 4 qrs. on the land is rather on the high 

 side? This land is well tilled and has had plenty of 

 manure, and I think given a good climate in the 

 eastern counties 4J qrs. is a fair average in fact, as 

 I have already stated, we ought to get something like 

 33 bushels. 



3459. And that on land rented at about 1 an acre 

 or 21s.? A little more than 21s. 



3460. You referred to the farmer's desire to be left 

 alone. Would that include doing away with the pre- 

 sent Corn Production Act, under which there is a 

 minimum wage guarantee to the labourer? I had not 

 that specially in view. I made the statement in a 

 general way. What I was thinking of was the 

 farmer's general attitude to Government Departments 

 during the past three or four years, and that the 

 feeling among farmers generally is that they have 

 had quite enough of us officials. 



3461. Would not that include doing away with the 

 minimum wage? I had not that in mind, but I 

 expect it would. 



3462. Mr. Overman : I want to take you through 

 your estimated cost of keeping a horse. I think that 

 is where the difference between you and Mr. Cautley 

 arises. Your quantities as to oats are all right, but 

 what about the charge of 5s. a bushel? You know 

 that all Costings Committees and Commissions take 

 the price not at the actual cost of production, but at 

 the market price less the cost of marketing expenses? 

 Yes, I know that. 



3463. Supposing I grow 100 acres of oats, are you 

 going to take all my profit off that 100 acres and try 

 to put it against the wheat? On this system of tal 

 culation you would have to take it off the horse corn 

 I allow nothing for the horse corn except the cost of 

 growing. 



3464. We do not agree on that? I know we do not. 



3465. I see you have put down 14 Ibs. of hay a day 

 for six months. Have you ever weighed the hay nnd 

 chaff a big horse eats? I have not myself, but it has 

 been pretty frequently weighed. 



3466. I weighed it myself last year, and I know thev 

 cannot live on less than 28 Ibs. of hay and hay chaff. 

 A cart-horse has to have his stomach filled, and he can- 

 not exist on 14 Ibs. of hay a day. That at one time 

 was the Army ration, and they proved that the horse 

 could not exist on it in the Army, and they increased 

 it to 20 Ibs. ? I allow 7 Ibs. of straw a day in addition. 



3467. That is 21 Ibs., and he cannot live on that. 

 Now, take the harness and repairs. You put down the 

 post-war cost of that as 15s. All I can say is, I have 



