MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



163 



20 August, 1919.] 



MR. CASTELL WKEY. 



\_Cuntinued. 



holding:' It is a trouble that has got to be met. It is 

 no use funking a thing ; we have to do it somehow. 



4141. You say the old race of agricultural workers 

 were more honest, more efficient, better workers, and 

 so on, than the present generation:' Some of the 

 older men I have got are most excellent. 



4142. Would you say as a generalisation that the 

 older race of agricultural labourers was better than the 

 younger generation ? Yes, there is no comparison. 



4143. Might 1 ask what the cash rewards of their 

 honesty, industry, and efficiency were? The wages 

 were very low then, I believe? Yes. 



4144. 1 put it to you again as a possibility, do 

 not you think it is just because the rewards of the 

 industry, of efficiency and honesty of these old agri- 

 cultural labourers, was so very poor, that the present 

 generation is not having any. and will not put for- 

 ward the same efforts in the industry? Possibly that 

 is so. 



4145. That is to say, what you are inheriting now 

 is a very evil tradition on the part of the farmers 

 in the past? Possibly. Wo certainly did not pay 

 the wages we ought to have paid. 



4146. How can you expect thesis people to accept 

 those conditions? You have to face that, havo not 

 you ? Yes. 



4147. And I suggest you can only face it by raising 

 the rewards of their industry? To the good men. 



4148. To the good men, of course; and by raising 

 the standard of education, as you suggest? Yes. 



4149. Is there any other possibility of meeting 

 it? I do not think so. 



4160. Then why blame the present generation? -I 

 do not think it is inherited; it is cultivated. 



4151. It is cultivated because of the old conditions? 

 No, it is cultivated by agitators. 



4152. Agitators .is a somewhat vague phraste. I 

 might be considered to be one myself ; but do not 

 you think if there was nothing to agitate for, there 

 would be no agitators ? Possibly ; they would bo out 

 of a job. 



4153. Do not you think that if the people had been 

 properly treated, the agitators would have had no 

 scope at all? I think a great deal is due to the 

 class of official that the Agricultural Labourers^ Union 

 puts in as its Secretary and Chairman. My local 

 union have a railway signalman as secretary, and a 

 (on I hawker as chairman. Neither of them under- 

 stands agriculture, and they cannot deal with this. 



41.34. I put it to you that even supposing the 

 chairman and secretary of that union, about which 

 I knou very little indeed, are of the class you indi- 

 cate, unless the farm servants, the agricultural workers 

 in England, were disposed to listen to them about 

 their grievances, there would be no scope for that 

 union or any other union in the industry? Why 

 do not they confine it to experts in their job? 



4155. Possibly it is their business. I put it to you 

 they havo a perfect right to choose anybody they 

 lik.-!' Yes. 



I'kairman: I am afraid thnt is not a proper ques- 

 tion as to whether someone is a proper union official, 

 or is not. 



Mr. \\'<iU;rr: On a point of order, I submit the 

 question is perfectly in order, because it was not 

 I In .Mr. Thomas Henderson. 



ninin: The personnel of the union or their 

 officers is not a subject that we can discuss. 



Mr. ]><:llu.i : The question does not affect mo any 

 more than it does Mr. Thomas Henderson, but I do 

 suggest you should allow it, because it is a definite 

 accusation mad'c by the witness against the local 

 union, and lie has brought it as one of the reasons 

 for the inefficiency of the agricultural labourer. 



Mr. Thomas Henderton: I do not want to press the 

 point partirularly ; but I do suggest to you that 

 agricultural labourers, for whatever reason it may 

 be, who are discontented and want to form a Union 

 for better conditions, have the same right as other 

 ' have of appointing whom they like as officials. 



4156. It does not matter to you?- -I tHink it does. 

 If I have to meet an official of a Union, I should like 

 to meet a man who thoroughly understands his job. 

 I believe all the labourers ought to join the Union. I 

 am very strong that way myself; but I should like to 

 meet a man who is a practical mn and not a railway 

 signalman or coal hawker. 



25125 



4157. After ah 1 , they are simply putting forward 

 the views of their constituents? Yes; but. they have 

 not done the actual work, and I do not see how they 

 can deal with it as practical men. 



4158. We will leave that point. With regard to 

 your German prisoners how do they figure in your 

 wages bill? Do they get the full wages of ordinary 

 labourers? They are paid at Government rates. 



4159. What are they? I cannot tell you off-hand. 

 The Government tell us what we have to pay, and we 

 pay it. 



4160. Mr. Dallas : It is 6s. 6d. ? It is the same as 

 the minimum wage. 



4161. Mr. Thomas Henderson: And they aro 

 actually paid that, or the Government are paid? 

 Yes, the Government are paid. 



4162. You have given a very surprising judgment, 

 and I frankly admit I do not know your conditions 

 in Northamptonshire. You said there was more 

 callousness about the war amongst agricultural 

 labourers than among any other class of people? 

 3fes. I think there was. 



4163. It was a most astonishing statement to me. 

 Did none of them go to the Army at all? As few as 

 possible. As long as w-e could get exemption for 

 them, they would not go. I should think they volun- 

 teered less than any other class of person in England. 



4164. Do you know the figures? No. 

 Chairman: I think these questions should not be 



put. 



Mr. Thomas Henderson: With all deference, I am 

 questioning him on his own statements. I am sorry 

 these statements should go forward, but it is not from 

 my questions. 



4165. You do not know the figures with regard to 

 recruitment? I have not stated the figures. 



4166. Would you mind giving us the evidence from 

 the wages sheet, showing the effects of the deteriora- 

 tion in the efficiency of labour? Yes, I can produce 

 them. 



4167. Mr. J. M. Henderson : I do not propose to 

 a.sk any questions on the accounts. You have been 

 good enough to say you will produce the balance 

 sheots ; but I observe the house accounts and all that 

 are there. I presume the farm accounts are perfectly 

 distinct? Absolutely distinct. 



4168. They only happen to be in that volume? 

 That is all. 



4169. What is your experience with regard to 

 c i je.ils during the last years in which you have been 

 managing? Have you made a profit on them or not? 

 Yes, I think I have. 



4170. And you have made a profit on the cattle as 

 well? Yes; I think profits have been general. 



4171. What is your idea of the profepecte for the 

 future taking the, world's position as to wheat, and 

 so forth. What is your idea as to whether the price 

 is to go up or down within the next three years? I 

 am afraid I cannot judge on those questions. 



4172. You have not thought about it? I have tried 

 to, but only as an amateur. I have not the figures 

 and facts available to give you an answer. 



4173. Are you aware that Canada has fixed a mini- 

 mum for wheat for this next year at $2.25 per bushel, 

 which is equal to 72s. lOd. a quarter? Yes; I have 

 seen it in print. 



4174. Do you think there is any chance of its going 

 down the next three years? 



Chairman : I think he has answered that question, 

 that he anticipates making the profits of 1916 and 

 1917 in the future. 



4175. Mr. J. M. Henderson : What is your sugges- 

 tion, if you have any, as to the minimum which the 

 Government ought to fix for 1920-21? I think it is 

 impossible to give any figure until we know what the 

 Wages Board are going to do. 



4176. It has been suggested by several other wit- 

 nesses, 60s. That is the minimum. Do you agree? 

 The minimum and a free market. I should think that 

 is a satisfactory figure ; but 1 have not studied the 

 question. 



4177. You do not suggest any minimum as to meat. 

 Lord Rhondda fixed 67s.? No. 



4178. Do vou do a good deal in milk? No, very 

 little. 



4179. During your management, have you increased 

 the number of modern implements? Very greatly. 



L 3 



