MINUTES Ui' KVIDENCK. 



20 .1 //*/, 1919.] 



MR. CASTELL WHEY. 



[Continued. 



you will give me some figures 1 might be able to 

 answer you. 



1222. X'ou also said that the farmers had a lack of 

 capital: 1 I do not think I said that. 



4223. Thf i'luiiriniiii : He said that he believed that 

 farmers probably had a shortage of capital? I think 

 I said they would do Letter if they had more capital. 

 l'2-\. Mr. Edtcanlx: You are aware that in certain 

 parts of the country a large number of farms are in 

 the market, and that farmers are buying them? Yes. 

 422.5. Is that so in your district? "Yes 

 4226. If farmers, were short of capital, when the 

 land-owner provided a large portion of the farmer's 

 capital in the shape of the land he farmed, what, in 

 your opinion, will be the effect on the industry in the 

 future when the farmer, having bought his farm, 

 will have to produce a double lot of capital, as it were 

 --the purchase money for his farm, and his capital 

 in his farm? I am a Crop Inspector under the Corn 

 Production Act for the Board of Agriculture, and in 

 the course of my duties I happened to ask a farmer 

 if he was the outgoing tenant, and he said: " Worse 

 Iii'k. I am not." I said: "Why do you say worse 

 luck? " He said: " I have bought the place, and I 

 find that I have to do all my own repairs, and pay 

 Income Tax, and everything else, and I wish I had 

 never seen it." 



1227. Htm <l, t the farms in your district compare 

 in area with your farm? I should think the farms 

 on the average round me would be possibly 250 I 



122*. Mr \\~<ill:ii : May ue have the name of the 

 individual you refer to? I am prepared to ask him 

 for permission to divulge his name, if you would 

 wish to liavo his name. 



4229. Yes, I wish you would let us have it? I will 

 a*k for permission if the Secretaries will koep a note 

 of that, and remind me of it. 



123H. Mf l>,il/,is; ^ on ,j;iy ; paragraph ii : "The 

 extraordinary conditions applied to agriculture by the 

 \Vages Hoard, which to an outsider ap|x>ar irrecnn- 

 cilable to the economic prospects of the agricultural 

 industrx." Will you toll u.s what you really mean by 

 that? You did say something this nonung about 

 the wages being fixed the same for an unskilled man 

 >f 21 a~ for a fully skilled man of :i. Is that pre- 

 eiM-ly wha't you mean, or do you mean that and some- 

 thing else, or only that? That is one of the condi- 

 tions. 1 think it i-. absurd that a boy of only 21. 

 working on a (arm. \< e will w ,y. with his father." who 

 is a fully skilled man at his work, should get the same 



rate III Mage*. 



1231. The country decided that a IMIV of Is years 

 t age was man enough to go out and fight for his 

 count rx. and if the \\ ago Hoard allows you another 

 three years, and applies this scale to the hoy of 21, 

 do you not agree with it? No. 



42M2. How long an apprenticeship do you think 

 should be served by an agricultural labourer?- Take 

 the matter of thatching, a- an example. That only 

 takes place (or three weeks in the \ear. and I do 

 not suppose any boy 'ould learn to thatch in throe 

 weeks. In six months a l>oy can be trained for mili- 

 tary duty, mid is then fit to go over the top, but 

 that doe, not apply to agriculture. A great deal 

 more training, in my opinion, is necessary. 



I2:t3. With regard to education, I suppose you 

 Mould agree that most \nn-< in agriculture have, been 

 working since they were about l.'t years of age, and 

 some of them at an even earlier age? 14 is nearer 

 the mark now. is it not? 



1231. Yes. I agree, II is the age noxv, but until 

 comparatively recently it has lieen 13. If a boy 

 works from the age of 13 until he is 21 on a farm 

 lo you not think he bus bad a fairly long apprentice- 

 ship?-- -They learn, of conr-e, as thev grow older, 

 but they cannot begin to learn thatching and hoe- 

 ing roots at 13. They only start to learn that when 

 they are about 18. 



12.'C). They must have a fail' amount of skill aftei 

 they have been a number O f years in the business, 

 must, they not ? It depends upon their brain, and 

 Ibeir aptitude, and their powers of observation 

 whether they take it in quickly or not. A l>oy who 

 bas been leading a mink carl at II. I agree, i-. put 

 a more important job \\hen lie is 10. 



2.-, 12.-, 



J23G. You told us this morning that a boy of 14 

 was capable and skilled enough to look after a pair 

 of horses, and I put it to you that when a boy has 

 served for another seven years until he isi 21, he must 

 be supposed to have gathered some skill as he has 

 gone along? Yes, some. 



4237. That is my point. He then has to get a 

 wage of 36s. b'd. You stated that wages before the 

 xvar were 18s. a week, and that they were too low? 

 Yes. 



4238. The Board of Trade told us recently that the 

 cost of living has increased 115 per cent; do you 

 agree? Y'es. 



4239. So that actually his wage of 36s. 6d. to-day 

 is, in reality, bearing in mind the increase of 315 per 

 cent, in the cost of living, a less wage than the wage 

 of 18s! before the war? Yes, that is so, but you have 

 got to think of the horsekeeper, who gets 150 per 

 cent, rise and the rise in the case of feeding stuffs is 

 only 115 per cent. You do not give us any credit for 

 that. 



4240. I am not going to give you the credit because 

 you have already given the Wages Board the credit, 

 or the discredit for that, as the case may be? You 

 are a member of the Wages Board, are "you? 



4241. Yes. I am rather concerned about a state- 

 ment you made this morning, and one you have 

 repeated several times, because I think it "is a very 

 serious statement. You said that men have wilfully 

 and deliberately ceased to take any interest in their 

 xvork? Yes, I made that statement, and I am pre- 

 pared to stick to it. I can prove it in one instance 

 it' you would like me to do so. I know you have not 

 got time to go into many of them. 



1212. One instance may be correct, but I do not 

 think that one instance can prove the fact generally, 

 if it be a fact? One gentleman here asked me to 

 bring up the figures relating to the deterioration of 

 labour, and I can do that another time. 



1213. You told us about some man who went to 

 play cricket . 



The t'ldiiniuin: I do not think it is useful to go 

 over that ground again. The witness has offered to 

 bring up figures showing the actual amount of work 

 done, and the cost paid for that work from his books. 

 \\lien he conies lioforo us again you can examine him 

 U]K>U it. 



424 J. Mi. hull, is: I am dealing with the evidence 

 of the it ness with regard to the efficiency, or in- 

 efficiency,, of lulxnir. Inefficiency must have a very 

 serious and widespread effect on the economic posi- 

 tion of this industry if it exists, and I want to show 

 that the Witness is not reliable in the evidence that he 

 lias given. (To the Witness) I have here a current 

 copy of i! The Mark Lane Express," this week's 

 copy, in which the leader writer, or the leaderette 

 writer, draws attention to the fact that he visited 

 a farm last week, and that the men were not at work, 

 and that the horses were at grass and that the farmer 

 preferred to turn his men off at the end of the 

 ordinary day's work rather than pay overtime rates, 

 or let the men work overtime there it is, you can 

 read it for yourself? That has nothing to do with 

 me. 



4245. No. but it does go to prove that the labourers, 

 re not the only people who may not work all tho 

 hours that might be worked during harvest time? 

 I think that I have censured the farmer as much as 

 I have censured the labourer. 



4240. I was coming to that next. You said the 

 landlords were inefficient, the farmers were inefficient, 

 and that the Inlioiircrs were inefficient. Would you 

 suggest that the only people who are efficient in 

 agriculture are the managers? .No, I would not. 



4247. Then it seems to me that there is nobody who 

 is left who i< efficient at all? I do not think, as a 

 matter of fact, that I mentioned the word " in- 

 efficient." 



4248. Yes. I can assure you you did, and you xvill 

 see it in the report of your evidence? Unless you 

 can prove- it I do not think you should make these- 

 wild statements. 



124!). The shorthand notes will show. You said von 

 had been abroad for some time? Yes. 



L \ 



