MIN'UTES Oi" EVIDENCE. 



14 October, 1919.] 



MK. JAMES GARDNER. 



[Continued. 



12.762. Mr. Thos. Henderson : I see you say that 

 your membership is confined to tenant farmers and 

 occupying owners? Yes. 



12.763. 1 presume the great majority are tenant 

 farmers P Yes, the larger number. 



12.764. And you represent all the counties in Scot- 

 land? All the counties. 



l'2,t(j~). .Might I ask where your greatest number 

 of members are? Our largest membership is in Ayr- 

 shire at the moment. 1 am subject to correction, 

 but Aberdeenshire and Perthshire also run it very 

 i-loiO in membership. 



12.766. How about the Lothians? In the Lothians 

 the farms are larger. There are not the same number 

 of small farms to the area, but we have most of them 

 in the Lothiaus. 



12.767. The proportion of possible members is as 

 great there as elsewhere? Possibly greater. 



12.768. You go on to say there are various factors 

 which are reacting adversely on production; and you 

 give, first of all, the lack of sufficient security of 

 tenure. May i ask if these Clauses are arranged in 

 the order of importance, according to your own ideas ? 

 No; I cannot say that I made any attempt to set 

 them down in the order of importance. I just set 

 them down as they occurred to me as I went along. 



12,761*. So the prominent place you give to security 

 of tenure is accidental? More or less. 



.2,770. Is it, in your opinion, a serious factor in 

 Scotland? In my opinion it is. 



12,771. Could you elucidate that at all? With 

 regard to this question of security of tenure, I under- 

 stand this Commission takes into cognisance only the 

 effect it may have, and that you are not prepared 

 to discuss its merits or demerits, seeing that the 

 accredited representatives of the landowners are not 

 present. Is that so, Mr. Chairman? 



12,77lA. Chairman: I think that is the line? In 

 that case, Mr. Jieii'lerM.n, 1 tan hardly go into the 

 merits or dements of the question, but in so far as 

 the effect of the want of security of tenure reacts 

 adversely on agriculture, I am prepared to give evi- 

 dence on that. 



12,77':. Mr. Thomas Henderson: That is all I am 

 Mking. I want you to illustrate, if you can, how the 

 lack of security of tenure affect* the farmers ad- 

 versely ? 



13,773*. ' I 'iirman: Affecte the cost of the produc- 

 tion, or otherwise affects the farmer cultivating the 

 which, necessarily, affects the coste of produt- 

 To take the question broadly with regard to 

 the United Kingdom, I think that in Scotland we 

 a better system of tenure than you have in England; 

 that is to say, our leases are for a very much longer 

 period. We have year to year leases but they are 

 very much in the minority. In England here it is 

 principally I understand- although I am merely pepre- 

 -iting Scotland and should not perhaps refer to 

 iian incidentally tenancies from year 

 to year. In Scotland we have from 19 years down to 

 7 years leases. A great many of them at the present 

 time are 14 years' leases without a break. In - 

 land you can lay out your plans better -according to 

 the leasehold system ; that is to say, you are secure 

 up till the end of your lease, and naturally when a 

 man is lay inj; down a line of procedure in his busi- 

 -I- 8 or 10 years ahead secure, it must 

 bo obvious I think to anyone, if he intends to put 

 his best in t| lt - place and lay out his capital, ho has 

 - ;inr<- that he will have a return on his enter- 

 prise and capital in those years, whereas if the tenure. 

 is only from year to year In lias not that ti.ssura ncr. 

 1 do not want to say a single thing adverse to the 

 landnv. ii-m. I l,di.\,. in tin- landowning 



I do say that we want a greater measure 

 of security for the man with brains and capita] to 

 throw his whole wight into the development of farm- 

 ing in tin. Tinted Kingdom, and that it cannot be 

 dom- niile-^ h,. that the capital 



and ontorjirUo lie pnt into liis Ipiisims, v. ill :issm ,.<lly 

 rt*turn to him in rcmunerat ion in some lorm or other. 

 ( should say. Mr. ( hanman, f do not for a moment 

 object to the landlord* selling their property just now. 

 They nro having a (rood market, and they have had 1 



26370 



very bad times very many years. I must say, if I 

 were a landlord at the moment, I should sell myself, 

 if I found myself in the position to do so and that it 

 was the better way out. I do not object at all to 

 sales on the part of the landlord. L think he is 

 doing a very wise thing. But we, in Scotland, and 

 1 myself, do think that the system of year to year 

 tenancies is a bad system. 1 remarked that our 

 system in Scotland is better ; yet, even there, we say 

 if the man is to farm best and do his level best on the 

 farm and is by some system allowed to proceed, 

 it would be much better, even in Scotland, while 

 having proper safeguards for the landlord's interest. 

 You must bring me up, Mr. Chairman if I am 

 trenching on matters that are outwith. I do not want 

 to argue the merits or demerits of the case; but with 

 regard to the return for the man, you cannot expect 

 men with brains and capital to put their whole 

 endeavour into agriculture unless you give them some 

 assurance of a return for a period" of years. 



12.773. Mr. Thomas Ih inli rxun: Your ease amounts 

 to this, if I followed you correctly, that you prefer 

 the leasehold system to the yearly tenancy? Yes. 



12.774. And you have the leasehold system in 

 Scotland? Yes. 



12,77o. Can you suggest any method by which that 

 leasehold system in Scotland could be improved to 

 meet your wishes? I could, if the Chairman will 

 allow me. 



12.776. Chairman: Yes, you may certainly answer 

 that question, in fact, answer any question, unless 

 I stop you? The objection that the leasehold 

 system in Scotland ia open to, from the tenants' 

 point of view, at least, and also from the nation's 

 point of view, is that when you come near, perhaps, 

 three or four years from the end of your tenancy, 

 supposing you have been doing the farm well and 

 putting capital into it, you naturally as a business 

 man look forward to the end of the period of your 

 contract, and instead of continuing your efforts, as 

 you have hitherto done, you will begin to reflect 

 on how your interests are going to be affected at the 

 end of the tenancy ; and I do not think anyone can 

 blame tho average farmer, who is a business man, for 

 withholding his hand from the expenditure of capital 

 towards the last three \nu-s of his tenancy. I may 

 say that in a great many cases it is not clone. The 

 expenditure is made and the farms are kept up to 

 a \i-ry high average; because in the past in Scotland, 

 and I think in England, the landlords have not been 

 insisting on their pound of flesh aa an ordinary 

 industrial commercial man would. Had they done 

 so in England and in Scotland the reform of the 

 system would have come about long ago; and I think 

 at the present time when you are considering the 

 future of agriculture, it is only right that you should 

 remember that that type of landlord who would not 

 take advantage of the lease coming to an end, or 

 even a year to year lease in England, is going, and 

 that you will have a type of landowner probably 

 now who will^insist on liis rights as a commercial pro- 

 position. Therefore, in the future you would not 

 have the same consideration, sentimental or otherwise, 

 that has reigned in the past, especially in England, 

 and you will have to make some arrangement 

 whereby this letting down of the cropping of the farm 

 the last two or three years in Scotland, and never 

 getting up in many parts of England, is met. I 

 think it will be well to direct the attention of the 

 country to that' question. 



12.777. Mr. Thomas TTemlrrson : Have you any sug- 

 gestion to offer as to how that might bo prevented? 

 Yes, I have, but it might take a little time. As a 

 Fnion we have been at this for four years ; and 

 what we have asked for in the last four years has 

 l en asked for by the Associated Chambers of Agri- 

 culture in May last in England. They asked practi- 

 cally the same thing; that is to say. a proper measure 



urity of tenure to the tenant farmer as the 

 only remedy, thoy said, in England for an intolerable 

 situation. Of course that does not apply so much to 

 Scotland. The Associated Chambers of Agriculture 

 also said that not only the matters affecting com- 

 pensation claims and the, determination of tenancies, 

 but also matters affecting rent should come under 

 the. consideration of an Arbitration Brwird, nnd they 



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