MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



14 October, 



MK. JAMES GARDNER. 



[Continued. 



would you call that a definite policy? If it would 

 say so. 



12.801. Have your Union any views upon that par- 

 ticular point? Have they contemplated the possibility 



the State saying to the farmer: "You are the 

 masters of your own business; conduct it as you 

 best like, and let the results be yours, whether they 

 be good or bad "? They have. ' 



12.802. What are your views upon that particular 

 question I' We are quite content to take it on those 

 terms, and give us fair play. 



12.803. On the other hand, the possibility is of the 

 -tate guaranteeing you certain minimum 'prices for 

 your cereal produce, coupled with what I see you 



eter to in the next paragraph, that is. the condition 

 that you farm up to a recognised standard. Have you 

 compared the two policies and formed any decision 

 of your own on that matter? Will you please repeat 

 the question? 



12.804. On the one hand you have the policy of 

 eavmg you entirely alone and attending to your 



business on your own lines which suit you best, when 

 the results, of course, will be on your own heads 

 and, on the other hand, you have the policy of 

 guaranteeing prices for cereal products, coupled with 

 tho obligation to farm up to a recognised standard 

 lou might take these two types of policy as ,, 

 presenting present tendencies. Has your Union made 

 up its mmd which it prefers being left alone, or 

 carrying on under some measure of State control ? 

 So tar as the Union itself is concerned, we have verv 

 definite views with regard to any preferential treat- 

 ment of any other industry outside of agriculture 

 as against agriculture ; and when I say that, we art- 

 prepared to go forward if the Government say wo 

 are to go forward on our own. We. as a Union, are 

 lime prepared to go forward on our own ; but we are 

 prepared to fight to the death anything that is unfair 

 in the matter of preferential tariffs.-or tariffs onmanii- 

 betnrad fOOcb, or anything of that kind. We must 

 BT a fan- field. Again, with regard to labour, we 

 must have a fair fi,.|il. We must not have any statu- 

 tory intorferemv a> to hours, tor install.-,.. If "there is 

 any difficulty between our labour and ourselves ire 

 must settle it amongst ourselves with regard to hours 

 difficulties. \Vc must not have the State interfering 

 with regard to hours. That is another matter in 

 which fair play would come in. If we are going to 

 be put in open competition with the world, we are 

 quite prepared to take up the challenge: but you 

 must leave us a fair field. 



12.805. The term " fair field " does not convey mu-li 

 nlightenment to me. What do you mean, exactly. 



by " fair field ' Do you mean permission to make 

 our own terms with your own employees, or permis- 

 sion to crop a farm as you |;l..;is.- and ma ke your 

 own bargain on the markets? When I answer your 

 question in one sense that we want to farm as we 

 please, I do not mean to put forward the idea that 

 we want to farm in a hurtful manner to the State 

 or say to use our farm for a rabbit warren, or any- 

 thing of that kind ; but we want to have liberty to 

 map out our own line of farming and alter it without 

 interference if we are put on our own. 



12.806. If you are allowed to do that and all State 

 mitral is removed, you are quite willing to go ahead 

 with your industry? We are. 



12.807. Would you prefer that to a system of 

 guarantees such as you have at present? So far as 

 the farmers of Scotland are concerned, we take up 

 the position it is not a matter for us of guarantees 

 or no guarantees, but it is entirely a matter for the- 

 community. 



12.808. Surely your views are a matter of some 

 importance, and we ihoold like to get them. Broad I v 

 [Peaking, whirl, policy do you prefer? Which do yoii 

 think would be best for the industry? In the past ire 



i;ive been put largely on our own. to .sink or swim 

 W did not sink. We kept to the surface; at least a 

 number ot at We are prepared to do the same thine 

 again. We in the Union have never considered this, 

 ion which you are putting to me- but if you 

 want my answer a.s an individual, I think here in the 

 land ol Great Britain we have an asset of the nation 

 a mine of gold or not of gold I..H of wealth ami 



in my opinion, it would be very bad policy not to 

 make the most; of that asset. 



12,609. But opinions might differ, you will agree, 

 as to what " making the most of it " means. I 

 should like to get your idea of what you mean by 

 making the most of the land of Great Britain? I 

 am prepared to give you that. As far as I am 

 concerned personally, 1 think that we must not, as a 

 nation, allow agriculture to go back to its former 

 position ; that is to say, it is too great an asset for 

 every man and woman in Britain for it ever to bo 

 allowed to wangle along to success or comparative 

 failure. It is too urgent a matter for each man and 

 woman in the British Isles to allow it to drift along 

 under the control of men more or less able and 

 worthy, and men who will trim the ship to keep 

 themselves right. I think that policy is not good. 



12.810. Then what do you propose? What is the 

 policy you prefer? You have mentioned guarantees 

 yourself. That is one method. There are other 

 things mentioned in my precis, I think, such as the 

 various matters of research education, a better 

 measure of security of tenure, better transport, and 

 other things of that kind. I think these" all ought to 

 be contemplated by anyone who has the future of 

 agriculture in this country in view. 



12.811. I do not think you will find many people 

 differ from you with regard to most of these things. 

 I suppose you are aware there is a considerable 

 difference of opinion with regard to the policy of 

 guaranteed prices. If you will confine your attention 

 to that for a minute. I would be glad if you will 

 tell me whether your Union, or you yourself indi- 

 vidually, wish the guaranteed price policy to con- 

 tinue, or you wish to be allowed to .make the best 

 or worst yourselves of your own industry? You 

 understand I can only answer for myself on this? 



12.812. I would like to have your own individual 

 answer? Speaking for myself, I am certain that I 

 would not wish to have to turn round about to the 

 position that we were in many years ago. While we 

 .survived, it was with a struggle; and I do not think 

 that any body of men, who are trying to do the best 

 as far as ordinary conditions go, should be allowed, 

 in a case of this kind when they are working a 

 national asset especially, to be left to struggle along 

 unaided. Guarantees should be put along with other 

 things. It is only one of the measures that we con- 

 templated only one among others. 



12.813. But it is an essential part of your policy, 

 do you think? It is essential only if the country 

 wants arable agriculture; it is not essential other- 

 wise. 



12.814. To bring the matter to a head, would you 

 care to be put back in the position of 1913? I would 

 not mind. 



13.815. Without guarantees? I would not mind 

 if you put me back in the same position as 1913. 

 \\'- were rather improving. For seven years before 

 that we were gradually improving. I will admit 

 that I was making a little profit before 1914, and 

 I would quite readily on my own part accept it if 

 you make the conditions altogether the same as the 

 1914 conditions. 



12.816. Of course, as you are aware, it is quite im- 

 possible to make the conditions the same. For ex- 

 ample, with regard to the prices of your crops, are 

 they likely to go back to those of 1913? You have 

 experts who differ on that point. Men who are 

 siipiwised to know differ as widely as the poles. 



12.817. I was not aware of it. I thought the 

 experts were of the same opinion except one, who 

 is on the side that prices will remain pretty high for 

 -f nif considerable time? I do not think any man 

 is in the ]>osition to say what the prices will be two 

 or three years hence. . 



12.818. No; but it is a pretty safe prophecy to 

 say that prices will be considerably higher than in 



1918, for instance? Considerably higher than in 

 1913, yes. 



12.819. As far as that factor goes, the new position 

 iiow would be better than that of 1913, if you are 

 going back to that? Much worse. 



12.820. So far as that factor is concerned? No, 

 because your costs have risen so tremendously. Unless 



A t 



