MINUTES OK EVIDENCE. 



15 



14 October, 1019.] 



MR. JAMES GARDNER. 



[Continued. 



inducements are sufficient; whereas it will take 10 or 

 12 years to get up the cattle stocks of th world. 



12.992. You do not think there is the same diffi- 

 culty likely to arise by the over-production of meat 

 by too much land being put down to grass; 1 Hy no 

 means. 



12.993. We have been told that meat production 

 does not pay? That is probably true at the moment. 

 1 have heard the same statement from practical 

 farmers myself whom I had no reason to disbelieve. 

 1 myself am not a meat producer, but we have a 

 system of control at present. 1 merely say to you 

 that the meat production of the world will take 10 or 

 15 years to get normal to meet the needs. There is 

 very little danger from the farmer's or landlord's 

 point of view in allowing the land to tumble down to 

 grass. 



12.994. It seems to me that every branch of agri- 

 culture when we take each separately shows a loss, 

 but somehow or other in the aggregate there is a little 

 profit or return on it. It is a little difficult to under- 

 stand how these things work out ? I disagree entirely, 

 because all my farming friends tell me we could make 

 a profit on grass, and I admit here to-day that we 

 have made a profit during tho war. I admitted that 

 we. made a profit before the war, and 1 have admitted 

 that I have made rather a. better profit during the 

 war than I made before the war ; but one has to take 

 into consideration the fact that that profit has to be 

 divided by two, or whatever factor it is which shows 

 the difference in the value of money. 



12.995. Have you any experience in milk produc- 

 tion? None whatever. 



12.996. Have your body considered the question of 

 milk production? Yes; they have, in connection with 

 the whole of the subject. 



12.997. Have they any suggestions to make with 

 regard to that whereby the conditions might be 

 improved ? 1 have heard one or two men asking 

 about cheese as being a stand-by. It is undoubtedly 

 the case that in Scotland we have improved the case 

 for the milk producer by co-operative creameries; that 

 is, buildings worked on co-operative principles by the 

 farmers themselves, where they fan send their pro- 

 ducts to and have the milk cooled. It is not sent on 

 to the city until it is cold. It will keep for a very 

 much longer time then ; and during an over-plus 

 production time such as in the months of June, July 

 and August, instead of flooding out the market ami 

 having a lot of milk emptied down drains and that 

 kind of thing, that which cannot be taken up by 

 the population is made into other products butter 

 and cheese and it has remedied the situation to a 

 very great extent in the West of Scotland, where I 

 come from. It has improved the conditions of the 

 dairy business all round. 



12.998. The co-operation in the making of cheese? 

 The co-operative method of dealing with milk and 

 its by-products. 



12.999. I suppose the improvement of the trans- 

 port would considerably help milk production, would 

 it not, it being a perishable article I' Tremendously. 



13.000. In regard to these figures you show us of 

 the cost of a horse, I notice you take only 220 days 

 on which a horse can work. Do you mean actually 

 on the farm, or for all purposes connected with the 

 farm? For all purposes connected with the farm. 



13.001. Do you suggest that on the average there 

 are 93 days or over 13 weeks in the year out of the 

 working days of the year on which you cannot find 

 any use for a horse? Yes. You asked on the farm, 

 but I should have qualified that by saying about the 

 farm. Wo have often to have the horses doing what 

 we call unproductive work. We have to find a job 

 for the man and the horse; but a great deal of it is 

 entirely unproductive work. 



13.002. Could you give us some idea of what you 

 mean? You will find in rainy wet weather for per- 

 haps two or three weeks there is nothing to be done, 

 and you send tho man away with a single horse per- 

 haps 'to try and mend the roads. He gets away to a 

 town or village to see if he can got any cinders or 



to make up the roads. Then perhaps we have 

 a lot of composts, lime and weed-, mixed together, 

 v/hirh we |>roli!ililv rart out. There is a lot of work of 

 that kind. 



13.003. That would be useful work, would it notP - 

 The road work 'certainly is useful work. As I have 

 told you, I believe in transport right into the field. 

 It is indirectly productive work, but directly it is not 

 productive work. But over and above that, we can 

 make up our 220 days almost without it. 



13.004. So that there would be other work done by 

 the horses beyond these 2'20 days? Not very much. 

 You have 52 Sundays. 



13.005. That means 313 working days? Then we 

 have 30 days oil for holidays. There are 26 days in 

 half-days on Saturday afternoons, and in our district 

 we have two holidays, the hire day and the summer 

 holiday; that is 30 days. 



13.006. In making this calculation, do you take your 

 Saturday half-holidays as a half-day only? You do 

 not count Saturday a day for a working day? -We 

 count it a half-day. There are 26 whole days or 52 

 half-days. 



13.007. I could not understand how you could get 

 93 days out of 313 working days that you could not 

 find work for your horses? It is almost literally true 

 in our climate, where it, is so wet. 



13.008. Mr. Walker: You said that drainage and 

 other matters were landlord's work, but you suggested, 

 I think, that a guarantee would enable this work to 

 be done. Would I be right in inferring that in your 

 opinion a guarantee would tend to raise rents? And 

 rightly tend to raise rents. 



13.009. It would raise rents? I have no doubt of it 

 whatever. 



13.010. In reply to Mr. Parker, following up the 

 point which is somewhat material, how much do you 

 think it would cost per acre to restore the land to its 

 pre-war fertility? That is something like giving a 

 guess at what the price might be a year or two 

 hence, or trying to find the average cost of potatoes 

 in Groat Britain, Scotland, or anywhere else. It must 

 be largely based on an assumption, it varies so very 

 greatly in different conditions; but I could very well 

 imagine that it might take for ditching and cleaning 

 of the land alone 4 to 5 an acre, and then you 

 would probably have a decrease in fertility over and 

 above. It might amount to a very large sum, and it 

 might be a trifle. I do not know that it is quite a 

 -fair question to ask what is the average rate for a 

 thing like that. 



13.011. But placed in the position as it at present 

 exists, you think 4 to 5 the acre? I was taking a 

 whole average. 



13.012. Taking your own farm, for example? Yes ; 

 I do think about 5 ; at least 5. 



13.013. In your precis you mention seven different 

 items. There is one I would like to have your views 

 on, and that is co-operation. What are your views on 

 co-operation? My views on co-operation are that for 

 the smallholders and small farmers co-operation is a 

 necessity to get the most out of it. Wo find that with 

 the larger farmers at present, they can get practicallv 

 as good terms from the manufacturers, in fact better 

 terms, than the Co-operative Societies can give their 

 members. We do not put that forward as an argu- 

 ment against co-operation. 



13.014. But for the smaller clasa of fanner, do you 

 think co-operation both in buying and selling would 

 bo a good thing? I will put it in that way? It is 

 essential to the success of small farmers. 



13.015. On the question of hours, you have admitted 

 that hours have been reduced? Yes. 



13.016. I think you will admit that there has been 

 an increased production? Do you mean in my farm 

 or in Scotland? 



13.017. Speaking generally; but in view of your 

 own statement that hours have been reduced, I would 

 be quite prepared to take your own locality? I 

 could not answer for the locality, but I could answer 

 for my own farm. 



13.018. Will you do so? We have not been able to 

 do as much as we did. say, in 1914, or 1915 even. 



13.019. Taking the country as a whole, hours have 

 been reduced generally, there is no question; and on 

 the other hand, taking production generally, you 

 would admit that there has been an increased pro- 

 duction? I certainly cannot admit it in regard to 

 my own place; and with regard to agriculture I do 

 not seo how that argument can apply to it at all until 



