1(1 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AUK1CULTURE. 





MR. JAMES QABDNEB. 



[Continued. 



13, I'll. You inrnn that a great nmnv farms could 

 be brouglit within roach of i)i> market fur lii|iii<i 

 milk if t! UHter facilities of tr.m-i-'i i I nun 



i he outlying districts to the railway .station than tin n- 

 are at present - Fc* 'hat is exactly what I moan. 



13,166. Mr. llr.i: \Yitli regard to ti.msp.-it, has 

 your t'liicn considered the question of co-operative 

 ownership of motor lorries?- We : n the tjues- 



tion of the co-o|>erati\c ownership of Kuril's iintl build- 

 ings and so on a good deal of consideration for some 

 years. \Yi had a trading scheme of our \>\\ n in 

 operation. l>ut -\c found that it Has t.i cumbrous and 

 there were too many obstacles in the way of carrying 

 it out by a body such a* our own. \\"e recognise, of 

 course, that if the tiling were done on a large scale 

 1 suppose you are referring to milk particularly :- 



13,lo6. No. I am referring to general farm produce 

 Mich us bringing manures and cakes and so on from 

 the station to the farm, and so on, and delivering 

 grain from tin- farm to the station. It might not 

 pay one man to own a lorry of his own for that 

 purpose, but if the- lorry were owned co-operatively 

 it would pay the farming community, would it not I" 

 There is a good deal of that being done in Scotland 

 at present. 1 thought yon were referring to some- 

 thing on a much larger scale, such ns depots collect- 

 ing the produce from a large area and grading it and 

 then dispatching it by rail. That is rather a matter 

 for the big Farmers' Associations the setting up of 

 rural centres for the collection of local produce. It is 

 rather a large ta.sk for small Farmers' Organisations 

 at present, so far as I can judge. 



13,157. Failing such organisation, do you think that 

 the system I have suggested of three or four farmers 

 on-operating and buying a tractor, for example, and 

 using it between them would be of use or that a 

 branch of the. Farmers' t'nion should take it up and 

 r.-<-..mmend it to their members? That is being done 

 to-day in Scotland in my own district. 



1.U58. And successfully ? Yes, successfully. 



13.15!). In No. 5 of your precis you refer to the lack 

 of research into the diseases of plants and animals 

 and the sciem f plant breeding. How do you sug- 

 gest that should be done by private enterprise or by 

 Government grants I" By a combination, I should say, 

 of course. If \oii leave it entirely to private enter- 

 prise you cannot expect consistently good results over 

 a number of years, because your whole foundation 

 is too uncertain. The Government ought, through 

 the Hoard of Agriculture, to take a directing hand in 

 a matter of that kind on behalf of the whole of agri- 

 culture. As you are perhaps aware, wo have the set- 

 ting up of a plant breeding station in view and wo 

 have collected about 18,000 from private subscribers 

 for that purpose. The Cm eminent are giving a 

 pound for every pound collected privately. !mt the 

 direction of that station will have to be left largely 

 to the Board along with representatives of the ordin- 

 ary organisations, so that the tanner* may take a lh<. 

 interest in it. If it is left entirely to the Government 

 the farmers will lose contact at any rate that is the 

 view we have in Scotland. 



I M.I 60. It is likely to be a useful undertaking:- 

 Mt*rt undoubtedly. 



1. 'J.I 61. Is much IxMiig thine in Scotland with regard 

 to diseases of animals:' Sheep, for example, partn-u 

 larly Buffer from one or two tliwaws that are hard to 

 diagnose apparently;* Then' is a certain amount of 

 good work being done at the (Ilasgow Yotcrinary 

 College. There is a technical i Xpert engaged there 

 Dr. (laugcr. We feel, in the Farmers' Organisations. 

 that a very much wider effort undertaking the deal- 

 ing with tjit* diseases of all sorts of anim.: 

 lutoly neccnsary. not only of sheep, but of all animals. 

 There ban been a prttposal lately put forward by the 

 Highland 8 'id the Scottish Chainlx-r. and the 



organisation I represent, to work with the Government 

 in the direction of getting n central institute for all 

 thM things, or a eeiitial direction to take up the 

 whoJo matter comprehensively. I admit it is diffi- 

 iidt. Init yon must nut lose the idea of having the 

 thing carried out thoroughly. I understand that in 

 61,000,000 M rliug have In < n 

 land alone by di" 



13.1 "ir opinion, is thai important 



df..-|.,pniMit? Exceedingly important. 



13,163. In answer to Mr. Henderson, and one.' or 

 11 said that the Scottish farmer would 

 be willing t<> In- li-lt alone if he was left alone alto- 

 gether in the- future without any guaranty- and with- 

 out any Wages Board or Orders of any soi 



l.'J.ltil. That was on the assumption that the tarmer 

 would be free to carry tin exactly as he liked. I lake 

 it? Practically that." Of course, we would n 

 inand. for example, that we should run our farms on 

 which would he entirely against the national 

 i nt create. 



l.'MiM. I do not mean bad farming, but MI bn 

 the farm is properly run. you mean, tin imlr 

 should be left to farm in the way he think- 

 simply tor his own personal interest' a.s apart from the 

 interest of the State? YOB. 



l.'i.li*;. The tanners' view licing that if the State 

 says he must grow more corn he considers that a 

 guarantee 1( , necessary? ^ 



13.167. So that the growing of cereals would be for 

 (lie benefit of the State in that case? Yes. We hold 

 rerj strongly that it is a matter entirely for the 

 community themselves, while admitting that' we Mould 

 l.o very sorry to see agriculture left to sink 



swim :ui formerly. But as factors between the com- 

 munity and the landlords we xiy we are prepai 

 tackle the problem as before if you give us fair play. 



13.168. Therefore, in fact, the guarantee i.s lor the. 

 protection of the community and not for the | 



tion of the f armer ? Tha t is our view. It is i 

 community to say. 



l.'J.l'ii). There is just tine |mint I should like to clear 

 up about the wages and the methtxl of employment 

 with regard to what Mr. I.angford asked you. It 

 may not be quite understood that in Knglaiid until 

 tho order of the. Wages Hoard came into operation 

 men were only paid when they were employed il they 

 came on a wet morning they might lie '.-cut eiwnv. 

 You In Scotland have the same system as we have 

 in Northumberland, namely, an upstanding wa. 



Yes 



13.170. The men arc engaged from year's end to 

 year's end, and you have to pay them MI t or I 



that is so. 



13.171. That principle always existed. e\eii In-fore 

 the Wages Boards? Yes. 



18,173. So that that really put the workers in the 

 V.r'h in a better position than the llx>urcrs further 

 south?- Ye .. I .should say so. 



l:J.17.'J. Mr. Smith asked you some (jiiestions about 

 the difficulty of equalising the results of a guarantee 



or at list tin- getting of a guarantee which Mould 

 be fair to one class of farmers without being unfair 

 to another? Yes. 



IH. 171. Hid not that condition :i!wa\s prevail in 

 the days of freedom from control and of open 

 markets:' --Yes, but when you had freedom from >n 

 I Mil you could adapt your system of farming to your 

 land in any way you caret! to. whereas nov\ von are 

 going to lx> supervised or overlooked in your farming 

 !> a certain extent. 



13,17."i. Farm* which are more primarily adapted io 

 certwl growing will grow cereals, and farms which 

 are not MI much adapted to it. but which under the 

 stress of the last few years have had to grow con:. 

 will re\crt to a more mixed s\stem of farming, and 

 ren-als will not In- the pi-iiiiarv some. ntion. 



but in conjunction with sti-ek growing and fe, clmn 

 lhe\ can still IM- maide a profitable adjunct to the 

 farm a- a whole. MI that in that way you can m-ire 

 or b s, equalise mattei-r Yes. MI long as you have 

 the land under the plough, and have the equipment 

 there, alth'iugh it may In- that the land is not actually 

 growing cereals at the- time. 



1H.1 is my point. >' that n-allv \<iu 



i-ould arrive nt a figure which would operate fairly 

 c'|iiall\ tti all classes of farming except, of course, in 

 the case ot very bail tarn-. x .we have, of 



coursi . to disregard them. 



13.177. .\d'. In /;! >'imii">;>' : Yon gave an answer 

 to l'i Douglas just now which f do not think you 

 quite meant. I want to clear it up. He a-ked \ on 

 whether you preferred nn open market to a low 

 guarantor-, and your answer was. if I remember 



