MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



23 



14 October, 1919,] 



MR. JAMES GARDNER. 



[Continued. 



13.251. The market conditions change. For in- 

 stance, you might possibly have a larger increase in 

 the price of wheat than in the price of other agricul- 

 tural produce, or in the general price of cereals, or you 

 might possibly have a fairly big increase in the price 

 of dairy produce, and not the same increase in the 

 price of other produce? Yes, that obtains in farming, 

 certainly. 



13.252. Where you have a system of farming de- 

 voted to the production of one of those commodities, 

 it is not always possible for the farmer to change his 

 practice, because he has not the necessary knowledge. 

 Is that not sometimes so? It is not convenient or 

 possible for him to change his practice, even supposing 

 he finds it not paying at the moment. 



13.253. That was not quite what I meant Sup- 

 posing it were fairly evident that some change in the 

 system of farming would be profitable, it is not always 

 practicable for the farmer to make that change, be- 

 cause of his own limited knowledge and experience? 

 Yes, and also because of the lay-out of the farm and 

 the lay-out of his own implements, and his own capital 

 on his plant. It is very inconvenient, and generally 

 would result at first in a very heavy outlay of money 

 to change from one system to another, and bv the 

 time he had changed round perhaps he would find 

 that he had put his money on the wrong horse and 

 that he might have done as well if he had remained 

 as he was. Is that your question? 



13.254. Still if a change is made it is absolutely 

 essential that the farmer should have a possibility of 

 extending his knowledge or gaining fresh knowledge. 

 May I take it it is your view that the educational 

 facilities should provide him with those possibilities? 

 Undoubtedly. 



13.255. In answer to Mr. Henderson this morning 

 as to No. 6 of the items of your precis, you said you 

 were of opinion that there should be more vocational 

 education for farmers and farm workers. At what 

 age do you suggest vocational education should 

 start? Under the new Education Act in Scotland at 

 least I understand that in the long run the boys and 

 pirls have to continue under the education authority 

 until they are 18. I should suggest that about 16 

 might be a suitable age for beginning their vocational 

 tiaining. That is only my opinion, of course. 



13.256. You would agree that it would be a good 

 thing to extend the number of farm scnools, apart 

 from agricultural colleges, available for, say. farmers' 

 (ions and farm workers of about 18 years of age, and 

 after they had had some previous amount of voca- 

 tional education? The whole question of education 

 requires very careful consideration ; there are so 

 many directions which look quite good at the first 

 glance in which education seems to be a benefit that 

 it would be quite easy to go in for a costly increase 

 n education over different districts without the thing 

 having been sufficiently considered, and it might not 

 have a beneficial effect. Whatever is done must be 

 done after mature consideration. With regard to 

 the point you mention with regard to boys and girls 

 nnd farmers' sons and daughters who are on the 

 farms and in touch with the practical side of farm- 

 ing, I think the greatest benefit they would derive 

 is from correct theory by means of lectures, and I 

 f-hould like to see in some localities in a central place 

 a thoroughly equipped demonstration centre to let 

 them see anything they may not have been practically 

 acquainted with before to let them see practically 

 how it is done and what the result is. But I would 

 not duplicate these demonstration stations ; I would 

 riot have too many of them. What the boys and girls 

 in the country who are acquainted with practical 

 farming require more is the theory; they have a cer- 

 tain amount of practical knowledge, and they will 

 acquire the rest from reading accounts of the demon- 

 stration farms and from occasional visits to them, 

 i-lthough the demonstration farms may be a good dis- 

 tance away ; but, as I say, I would not duplicate the 

 demonstration farms, because it is a costly business 

 and I do not think that the effect in the end would 

 '1 uto justify it. 



13,257. I quite agree; but is your opinion at all 

 general amongst the farmers of Scotland that what 



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is required is rather an explanation of the processes 

 and theory, so to speak, rather than demonstrations 

 of practice? I should not like to answer for the 

 general body of farmers in Scotland, but, speaking 

 for myself and I can only speak for myself I think 

 the greater number of boys and girls in the rural dis- 

 tricts are acquainted more or less with the practical 

 side, and it is the theoretical side that they do want. 

 13,253. Have you thought anything about a system 

 such as a system of short courses for farmers' sons 

 and daughters for teaching them the purely 

 theoretical side? Yes, to a certain extent I think 

 that system is in practice in Scotland already. We 

 have short courses of lectures and we have the longer 

 courses the more thorough courses at the colleges. 



13.259. You realise, of course, that a big scheme of 

 improvements of agricultural education might cost 

 the taxpayer a considerable Bum of money? Yes, but 

 he might get it repaid later on. 



13.260. Supposing there were a question of raising 

 two considerable sums of money, one for a system, of 

 giving technical advice and the other for the purpose 

 of paying a guarantee, which do you think the tax- 

 payer would get the best value out of? That is a 

 very difficult question to answer, the factors which. 

 come in to determine that are so uncertain. It is an 

 exceedingly hard question to answer. 



13.261. Following the estimate of the cost of horse 

 work you have down here a number of implements, 

 and you say the depreciation and upkeep of the 

 implements for 15 acres of land averages 23s. 

 an acre. Following that you have some special 

 equipments for the hay crop and the oat, barley and 

 wheat crop? Yes. 



13.262. Is this the general sort of equipment on 

 farms in Scotland? Would it be as high as this on 

 say, 50 acres? I should say, if you take a farm like 

 my own or a larger farm than 50 acres, say 200 or 300 

 or 400, for every 15 acres you would not require these 

 implements. 



13.263. You would not require three mowers for 

 45 acres? That is my point. I only show here the 

 actual price of the implements, and the implements 

 that would be required on a 60-acre holding on the 

 assumption that you are on a four-course rotation. 



13.264. The acreage to which these implements 

 apply is considerably extended when you increase the 

 size of the farm?- Undoubtedly. 



18.265. Mr. Dallas: You stated this morning that 

 what the farmers wanted was a fair field with no 

 Government interference? Yes. 



18.266. That was with special reference to hours 

 and labour and other things, provided there were no 

 guarantees? I said they would be prepared to accept 

 that. 



13.267. Yes, and then you went on to say that, 

 so far as hours and wages were concerned, you would 

 be in favour of some voluntary joint board or com- 

 mittee being set up to decide these matters as be- 

 tween the employer and the workman? Yes, 



13.268. I was wondering how you would deal with 

 the employers who were not, say, in the Farmers' 

 Union. Your Union represents .about 50 per cent, 

 of the employers in Scotland. How would you get 

 these employers to conform to whatever agreement 

 might be arrived at by the others? That is just the 

 point. Our Conciliation Committees merely issue re- 

 commendations. Both sides meet and agree, and the 

 Conciliation Committee issues a joint recommendation 

 from both sides, and although in the first six months' 

 period they may not all) come into line, yet later on 

 they will do so. You will probably find that by the 

 second term they have all come into line. Our ex- 

 perience is that the man who wild not come in and who 

 is irreconciliable in the first instance eventually does 

 come in, and also that the farm servant who will not 

 accept the terms comes into line also at a later period. 

 That has been my experience in connection with the 

 Conciliation Committees. 



13.269. I only suggest that you have no power to 

 enforce your recommendation on any person who is 

 not a party to it? No, there is no direct power to 

 enforce. 



13.270. Would you be in favour of what some people 

 have suggested, that once employers and workers have 



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