I'l 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 



14 OHobtr, 1919.] 



Mi:. JAMES GARDNER. 



[Cont'nnifil. 



cone to an agreement in order to bring thot- 

 ploreri and worker* who are outside into conformity 

 nii't make it fair for all concerned, tliat that :i. 



should be registered and should bflOOOM lovally 

 binding upon all parties in the industry:- That 



rstum of yourti involves that, in agriculture, if that 

 on had to !H> administered i.xcr a \ cry wide 

 area it would mean that in tliat ar.-a ih.- money 

 equivalent, and the conditions niul other things. 

 would !> pretty equal over tliat district. 



1M.271. No. not necessarily at all. On-e a voluntary 

 11. -lit has IM-CII arrived at hetwi-cii the employ, - 

 u ml the workers- --mid there may he employers or 

 workers who aro not parties to it would you be in 

 i.i\onr <>l registering that agn^mcnl. s;iy. with the 

 Ministry of LaUtur or with the Hoard of Agriculture 

 and then make it locally binding upon all coin , -\ n, d 

 you would not make anything legally binding in the 

 first place that had not ' d by the organised 



b >dy of employers and workers for the district : If 

 the district were properly represented. If then 1 were 

 three or four departments of farming in that district 

 aa we have in Scotland within a 50 miles' radius, and 

 if the different departments of funning were properly 

 represented on that. Commit!, e 1 MM- nothing against 

 vour proposal; but if you leave out the representation 

 of any of the departments say in our own district- 

 if you left out Upper I*anarkshire your decision which 

 might biiit the (ilctsgow area if applied to Upper 

 Lanarkshire might entail very great hardship and i-i- > 

 \-trsA; the decision arrived at in their district might 

 entail great hardship in n district like ours. It 

 would be a matter requiring very careful coiiKidcration 

 and you would have proper rcpn-sciitation of all the 

 departments before you could make it compulsory. 



l.'t.'27'J. Of course you would only be registering 

 what was a voluntary agreement:' -1 nin quite aware 

 of that. The recommendation leaves it open to the 

 other men to adjust any differences \vhi--h ipight arise. 



13.27.'l t. Supposing you as a good employer which 

 it is very evident you are because of the fact that 

 you have been chosen by the workers as well as the 

 employers to be the independent Chairman were to 

 agree with the Scottish Faun Servants' Union and a 

 few more employers like you to a certain rate of 

 wages and to a certain number of hours a week, it 

 would be unfair to you if a number of other em- 

 ployers who are not in the Union for ome reason did 

 not honour that particular agreement and you had 

 no power to make them pay the agreed rate of wages. 

 You would be at an unfair advantage in the com- 

 petitive market in these circumstances, would you 

 not?-- Undoubtedly for a short period we would be. 

 but as a mutter of practice and experience we do find 

 that they all fall into line later on. 



l:j,27o". Maybe that is because Scotsmen are better 

 at keeping agreements than Englishmen? I do not 

 know as to that. 



1.V276. At any rate we have to use the law in 

 England very much to get them to keep to their 

 agreement - iimen. I may tell you, are very 

 averse to compulsion ; that is in the Scotchman; he 

 will hardly be compelled. 



1:VJ77. Hi' doc* not like to be compelled himself, 

 but he like, to cnmpel other people? He does. 



1.V278. I was surprised this morning to hear you say 

 you had had no difficulty with regard to the scarcity 

 of labour in your locality- \<.t in my locality. 



1M.27!. Is it nut the fact that for many years back 



a large number of men come over from 



"id ns agricultural workers competing with the 



Iimen in Lanarkshire and the Weet of Scotland 



. not in regular skilled work ; they only 



do casual work. 



13.380. They come over us byremen or something 

 like that, but they gradually work tl in, do 



they not'- There are a few who do that, but they are 

 very small minority. 



l.V.'-l. Still they are there? Yes, in a few cases. 



l:V '"' li. thnt not mean -hat if these men net 

 employment they are only able to net employment hv 

 n of the fact tb.it the Scotchman has gone into 

 i.l.i-i:'. and taken up work as a carpenter, or what- 

 ever it may be, or has com. to the Clyde into the 

 shipyard or into ionic of the other various wor) 



factories in the \\ ~-. oiland r The Irishman can 

 c.o dirci 1 into these other employments : ,s well as into 

 agriculture, and I would not like to say it is because 

 the regular agriciilturul labourer has none into other 

 employment in (ilasgow and elsewhere that the Irish- 

 man is able to come ill. 



l:i. -*.'). \Vhat I me. in is if there were plenty ..i 

 Scotsmen on the jobs tin-, ihaps would not get a 

 chance at all unless it is the DIM that an Irishman 

 worker than a Scot-man' Sonic <>l these 

 Irishmen are rather n"od workers, but they are 

 lather Ilk.' the Si otch pi-ople in the sens.- that tlic\ do 

 not take compulsion readily either. 



l.'t, '-"-I. In replv to Mr. Overman you sanl that yoili 

 wanes bill had gone up from tl.UNI to fM.lKMI'r "> , - 



l.'l,2S.">. Would you mind telling us how many people 

 wen- employed in 1911 by yon and how many were 

 employed in 191*, and what was the pcrccntane he 

 tween boys and women as between the two par I 

 I have l>een going into that from my own books, and 

 1 find that the numbers for the two year 

 practically on all fours. 1 find thnt practically all 

 through there has l>een no difference in numbers or 

 in the make up of the staff. There have usually been 

 Three to four boys and a certain number of men. 

 together with a certain number of our old i. 

 women, and then we depend upon outside , 

 labour for the rest both male and female. It has 

 been practically the same since I'.MI. 



l.'i. _'*<;. Seeinn that your stati is practically the 

 s.uiie you would say there has been no depreciation 

 ill the labour:- When I say the same staff 1 mean 

 numerically. Some of our younevt men had to n 

 but they were replaced. 



13,287. We have sometimes had complaints here 

 that labour is not as efficient as it was. That is not 

 the opinion of everybody; some people hold i|iiite the 

 converse view? Yes. 



l.VJ'W. What is your experience:- My experience 

 is that at the present time and for the last two years 

 we have not been net tint 1 : the s;mie output as we did. 

 say. in 1915. That is what I find from actual results. 

 There is a reasonable explanation of that, namely, 

 that the best of our men were drawn for the Army 

 and we have been left with an inferior class of men 

 and have to do with a certain amount of substituted 

 labour, which accounts for it. 



l.'t.-^l. I was not (piite clear with regard to one of 

 your answers in reply to Mr. Walker this morning. 

 'Sou stated that there was not the same production 

 in agriculture in spite of what the Prime Minister 

 has said on that subject. I do not know how you 

 have been affected in your district or in Scotland 

 t.-'iierally, but in Knnland there is no doubt about 

 the fait that there have been less people cmployd 

 in agriculture during the past few years than then- 

 were prior to the war? \. 



lit. '_'!'(!. Yet ill spiic >! that there has heen a larger 

 production of all kinds in agricultural produce. 

 \Yotild that not show that so far from labour havinn 

 been less eflieient it must have improved in efficiency?' 

 If you had the number of your workers right and 

 the number of your acres rinbt it would certainly 

 prove that. That is what I meant when I said to Mr. 

 Walker that if you hove the evidence properly 

 weighed out you will find that is not the case. I only 

 spoke from my own experience. That is why 1 had 

 it so strongly in my mind that the evidence could not 

 have been properly weighed out. 



IM.L'IM. There is no doubt about the fact that 

 number of people have been employed, and there is 

 no doubt iihoiit the increase in produce. That means 

 that there must have lieen a larger percent. 

 produce per head than before !' Yes. The reason why 

 I say there has l>oen less production on my own farm in 

 because of the fact that I have none through pi. 

 the same work as I did before. The farm is all under 

 crop, and in tin- same proportions. Tin. employees 



are the. name in number and they are the sai l:i- 



of worker. In addition to that 1 formerly used to 

 take all my stuff to Glasgow, four miles away, and 

 cart all my manure hack. Kor the lust three year. 

 I have been putting on SO per cent, of the crop at 



