MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



25 



U October, 1919.] 



MR. JAMES GARDNER. 



[Continued. 



the railway station. If we had to cart the crop to 

 Glasgow I do not know where we would have been. 

 Of course, I adroit the reason for it is the difference 

 in the men. The younger and the stronger men have 

 been away, but I hope, and I feel pretty certain, that 

 we will have a return to normal conditions again. I 

 am quite sure we will get back into our stride again. 

 I do not say it is altogether owing to the younger 

 men having gone, because there may be faults due to 

 the organisation of farms generally, but in my own 

 case it was carried on practically as before, and 1 

 was nearly always on the place myself. 



13.292. With reference -to the question of a 

 guarantee, in reply to one of the Commissioners you 

 snid you were in favour of a guaranteed price on the 

 basis of a sliding scale? Yes. 



13.293. How would you work that out? You have 

 put a very difficult proposition in front of me now. 

 I have not thought that out, and I would prefer to 

 leave that to the members of the Commission and 

 uth.-r experts appointed by the Government. I think 

 it is quite within the bounds of possibility to work 

 out a sliding scale approximately on right lines. 



13.294. I asked you the question because we have 

 been asked to do something like that, and I do not 

 quite follow what you propose to base it upon. What 

 is the kind of standard you are going to slide up and 

 down by? I have not got quite to the length of 

 iniKidering it in detail. I can only see in front of 

 me a few facts and what the price just now is. The 

 price is almost certain to be ridiculous either ono 

 way or the other in a year or two's time. It is not 

 possible to fix a permanent price. 



13.295. That is one of the difficulties, but the farmer 

 I understand wants to be secured ; he wants to be able 

 to look ahead for some years. That is what farmers 

 generally are driving at, is it not? Yea. 



13.296. This question of guarantees as you know 

 would become a big political question and would bo 

 subject to contending political parties. Some people 

 in the State would be in favour of guarantees and 

 sonic would be against them. Do you know if that 

 would tend rather to leave farmers in a state of real 

 uncertainty, not knowing exactly where they were or 

 where they would be? I admit your point that no 

 Cuvei nnicnt can l>e bound by its predecessor to any- 

 thing of that kind, but my hope, and I think it is the 

 hope of all those people who have considered the 

 question not those who have formed their opinions 

 without examining the whole thing my hope is that 

 those people who have considered the question will see 

 that it is one of the best ways out of the tremendous 



sation which t present is taking effect in the 

 agricultural industry. 



1H.2!I7. 1 want to be quite sure that Scotchmen are 

 taking that point of view because they are reputed 

 ai any rate to be independent in their outlook and 

 independent in their own minds. That being .o, 1 

 do not understand why it is that Scotchmen want 

 what 'lir .lames Caird at the Board of Agriculture 

 some yeara ago termed " a crutch to lean upon." Do 

 you not think it would be far hotter even in the 

 interests of the country if the farmers were left 

 nbsolutely alone to farm their land in the best way 

 they could? You touch a Scotchman on a tender 

 spot when you begin to talk of the idea existing 

 \\ itli regard to his independence. I certainly have that 

 IVoling myself, and I may toll you that until I studied 

 this question some months ago I was quite against the 

 idea of a guarantee at first, but after considering the 

 matter I came to the conclusion that it was a matter 

 for the community. Agricultural land is a national 

 of which the community ought to make the most, 

 nnd any criticism with regard to the guarantee would 

 equally apply to r<\soarch and transport and anything. 

 " Why not leave it alone and allow it to sink or 

 swim and if there is sufficient virility in the industry 

 it will surmount all these difficulties." That is a 

 v.-ry plausible argument, but I do not think that it is 

 :>ltoother quite sound. This guarantee business is 

 going to be a guarantee under the cost of production, 

 nnd will simply mean a sort of safeguard to the land- 

 lord, who after nil is going to put: his monoy out, and 

 the farmer is going to put his money out, and it 

 will safeguard them from a slump which would 



mean a very serious thing in these times. If you 

 are not going to have all the elements which make 

 for the success of agriculture it will be a bad thing. 

 My idea is that if you were to make a combined 

 effort with all the elements including this guarantee 

 we shall be able to do what other countries have 

 been able to do, get out of the present state of 

 stagnation. British agriculture is a by-word and a 

 hissing to the foreigner, and I say emphatically it is 

 not the fault of the English or the Scottish farmer ; 

 it is the fault of the conditions under which he farms. 

 1 think, therefore, that we ought to make the con- 

 certed effort which I have been mentioning this 

 morning. I do not refer to the guarantee alone, 

 l.ut to concerted action all along the line, including 

 a guarantee ; the guarantee is only one of several 

 remedies. 



13.298. Do you think it is right that the taxpayer 

 of the country should pay out millions of pounds to 

 the employers in agriculture if there happened to 

 come along a depression, say, in prices. After all, 

 that is what the guarantee means; otherwise it means 

 nothing at all, and it is useless asking for it? Un- 

 doubtedly, but you have to come down to hard facts, 

 and I think when you do that it could be proved that 

 the State, taking it over a period of years, would be 

 in funds at the end of, say, 10 or 15 years. At the 

 end of that period I think it will be found that the 

 State, so far from having suffered any loss, would be 

 actually in funds by having paid out these millions 

 or whatever the amount might be in guarantees, 

 because of the intensive system of farming which they 

 had inaugurated by the expenditure of that money. 

 It may have to be spent, or it may not, but whether 

 it is spent or whether it is not, if as the result yon 

 get a real live intensive system of agriculture such 

 its has been in existence in other countries, the State 

 will be well repaid for tho expenditure of those 

 millions more or less. I admit your point and I 

 admit the difficulty of it. I think everyone must 

 admit that if prices fell and tho public" began to 

 realise that millions for two or three years were 

 being paid away because of the guarantee, the 

 Government would have a very difficult task to main- 

 tain the guarantee; but in spite of that fact I yay 

 that if you take it over a number of years I am 

 certain it could be proved that the community would 

 be in funds in the end. I am certain it would be 

 going in for a good investment by the expenditure 

 of those millions. I admit that is the weak side of 

 the case for a guarantee, but examining it from all 

 points of view my opinion is that a modified guaran- 

 tee along with the other things I have mentioned 

 will resuscitate the farming industry. 



13.299. In your own locality you have witnessed on 

 several occasions very severe depressions in the 

 Khiptnrilding industry, have you not? Yea. 



13.300. You will admit that agriculture is not the 

 only industry in the country that has been subject 

 to periods of depressions or very bad times? Yes, I 

 admit that. 



13.301. Do you think that the farmers of Scotland 

 would be prepared to allow themselves to he taxed for 

 the purpose of subsidising, say, shipbuilding ;uul 

 steel works, for the production of steel ? Probably 

 they havo already been subsidised for many of those 

 industries indirectly. 



13.302. That is not an answer to my question. You 

 -.re asking the community to subscribe to the upkeep 

 and the support of agriculture? Yes. 



13.303. If that is done, the other large industries of 

 the country may turn round and say, " You are sup- 

 porting the agricultural industry; why not subsidise 

 us, and I ask you whether the farmers of Scotland 

 are prepared to agree to subsidise industry all round ? 

 It might be the case in the future that one of your 

 R-am industrial lines, such as shipbuilding, might come 

 upon very bad times, and if it could be proved as con- 

 clusively as regards shipbuilding that the industry 

 could be made successful and could be carried on by 

 the expenditure of a sum of money over a short time- 

 mind you, I know I am opening up a very awkward 

 argument it may be found expedient to do so but 

 you cannot place shipbuilding and these other in- 

 dustries on exactly the same footing as agriculture 

 Your shipbuilding industry could go down and still 



