MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



14 October, 1919.] 



MR. JAMES GARDNER. 



[Continued. 



13.367. I think you laid a good deal of stress in your 

 evidence upon the effect of the equipment of the 

 farm on production. If yo'u are going to have the 

 equipment brought into a condition which will give 

 y:m the maximum production that will necessarily 

 moan that there must be an increase in the return to 

 the landlord ? Undoubtedly. 



13.368. An increase proportionately greater than he 

 was getting in the year 1914 when the returns were 

 not sufficient to enable him to put up that equipment? 

 That would naturally follow. 



13.369. How much of the guarantee would be left to 

 the farmer in that case? I am not much of a statis- 

 tician. I think your argument is quite good, but it is 

 a bit extended out, is it not ? 



13.370. The reason why landlords were not putting 

 money into tbeir estates in Scotland was that a 

 financial return was not sufficient according to your 

 own statement? If a landlord could get 5 per cent, 

 on his outlay on the land he considered that he was 

 doing fairly well? I do not say he considered he was 

 doing well. 



13.371. He carried on at that? He carried on. 



13.372. If you are going to get him to sink money 

 in the equipment of land then the amount of return 

 he is going to get must lie considerably greater than 

 he had before the war, and with the high costs of 

 equipment and so on it means that the rents must 

 be very considerably increased before it would be 

 worth the while of the landlord to put his money 

 into the equipment of the land? It might mean that, 

 hut I prefer to view it as a whole. Take the occupy- 

 ing owner the question as between the occupying 

 owner and the tenant as a whole. 



13,37.'!. What proportion of the farms in Scotland 

 are held by occupying owners? Not a very large pro- 

 portion, but it is becoming more enormous day by day. 

 The men I meet are mostly occupying owners, and 

 the question seems to present itself to them with 

 great force, and they are not prepared to go on with 

 further arable equipment unless there is a clear 

 declaration of policy. 



13,374. I think you stated in reply to a Commis- 

 sioner that the Scottish farmer did not want to 

 heroine an occupying owner that he prefers to be a 

 tenant? If he can get security of tenure. 



13.37:). If then- is security of tenure the occupying 

 owner class will not tend to increase greatly? No, 

 it will not. 



13.37t>. So that if we carry out the policy of the 

 Farmers' Union including the subsidy we may look 

 forward to a great increase in the number of tenant 

 farmers?- > 



I.'!. .'(77. So that if the landowner is going to equip 

 the land he must Kot a larger rent? He must neces- 

 sarily get a larger rent. 



I3.37H. Have you discounted at all from the result- 

 ing confidence the guarantee will give to the farmer 

 the amount of tin- increase of rent such a policy will 

 bring about? I think tin- intention of the guarantee 

 is to assure the landlord that his money will not be 

 .swept away altogether and not so much that he will 

 get an increased rent. The idea is that his outlay 

 a ml his money may not be wasted. 



I3,37!t. It the guarantee is going to bring about the 

 necessary equipment of the farms it is not merely a 

 question of the land owners' money being swept away ; 

 it is a question of the money being found from the 

 tenant? It must he found from the land. 



13.3*0. The landowner must find it from the tenant, 

 and. therefore, that means a very much increased 

 rent? Yes. 



I3.3H1. Do you think that the farmers in Scotland 

 are contemplating a very much increased rent? I 

 think they would auree to a certain amount of in- 

 e if the owners will provide efficient buildings, 

 and the drainage is made thoroughly efficient. Speak- 

 ing for myself, 1 would agree to an increase of rent 

 under those conditions, and I think it would be only 

 fair that the rents should be increased if that is done. 



l.3..'iM2. A good many of tho estates in Scotland are 

 hr.ndcd, and if this policy is carried out, and the 

 tenant, thereby is placed in a position in which he 

 wast give aa increase rent, what guarantee can you 



give to the community that the increased return to 

 the landlord will be spent in the equipment of the/ 

 estate? Of course you have County Executive Com- 

 mittees and I understand they will have the owner 

 as well as the farmer in mind with regard to the 

 question of the equipment of the estate. 



13.383. Let us just take one of the items which have 

 hitherto been a common part of the equipment of 

 estates in Scotland the housing of the workers. 

 I think it is on public record in the report 

 of a Commission that the Housing Acts have not been 

 carried out so far as the estates in Scotland are con- 

 cerned? You mean the present Housing Act? 



13.384. No, I am referring to the Housing Acts prior 

 to the passing of the rec/ent Act, and I suggest to you 

 that the whole course of the Housing ^cts from 1892 

 onwards have never been carried out so far as the 

 estates in Scotland are concerned. The reason given 

 has been that the landlords have not been able to do 

 it I'Yes. 



13.385. Have you any evidence to show that the 

 reason why the estates are bonded has been because 

 of the agricultural position, and not because the rents 

 have been drawn from the estates and spent other- 

 wise? I think I understand the drift of your ques- 

 tion. Undoubtedly many landlords who bought 

 estates bought them probably at the agricultural 

 value, but there are many men who have bought larg 

 estates in the last 60 years at much more than the 

 agricultural value. In addition to the purely agri- 

 cultural value there is sporting and amenity value, 

 and considering it from a purely agricultural point 

 of view it may l>e said that those men paid not an 

 economic price tor their land. I think that answers 

 your question. 



13.386. Is it within your knowledge that many of the 

 estates are bonded and that the money the owners 

 got from the bonding of their estates was not used 

 for the equipment of the estate but was spent in other 

 ways? 



Chairman : Do you think the witness can know that 

 of his own knowledge? 



Mr. T)iinrnn : I do not think anyone living in Scot- 

 land can be without knowledge of it. 



Clniii nnin : I do not know that the witness can 

 nv.swer of his own knowledge whether a landlord wh,> 

 has lx>r rowed money on his estate in Scotland has 

 spent that money in riotous living or in any other 

 way. I am afraid the witness could not give useful 

 evidence on that point?- My answer to Mr. Duncan's 

 question would be this : I suggest that the County 

 Agricultural Executive Committees will take into 

 their purview in the future not only the duties of the 

 tenant, but also the duties the landowner will have to 

 perform in regard to his land. 



13.387. Mr. Duncan: If the landlord does not spend 

 his money on equipping his estate, what power will 

 there be to see that the estate is properly equipped? 

 We have not got that length yet seemingly, but I have 

 no doubt if w<> do come to an obstruction or a stono 

 v all of that kind we will have to get over it or round 

 it or through it. 



13.388. I think you stated that there ought not to be 

 any .statutory interference with the working hours of 

 Scottish farms. May I put it to you in this way; if 

 the State decides to limit the working day for work- 

 men in this country what reason would the employers 

 in agriculture give why they should be more favour- 

 ably treated than employers in other industries? 

 There is more than one reason. Probably the main 

 reason is the seasonal character of the agricultural 

 industry; you have so much broken time because of 

 frost or wet weather or drought. That is why I prefer 

 to have an overhead wage for the worker right 

 throughout the year independent of weather. 



13.389. If the State decides that the hours of labour 

 are to be limited and leaves the application of the 

 principle of the limitation of hours to the employers 

 and the workmen in tho industry, would that meet 

 your objection so far as seasonal and weather condi- 

 tions are concerned? I am sorry I did not quite 

 catch that. 



13.390. If the State decides to legislate on the prin- 

 ciple that the working week is to be limited to a 

 certain number of hours, and leaves it to the em- 

 ployers and workmen in the industry to work out 



