MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



39 



15 October, 1919.] MESSRS. ALLISON, JNR., McNicoL, STEWART, DAVIDSON, MCLAREN. 



[Continued. 



14.522. (Mr. McNicol) : We have said definitely that 

 we are not asking for guarantees to guarantee a 

 profit and practically speaking we are not asking 

 for guarantees at all in any case. What we say is 

 this : If the community ask us to continue to plough 

 up and want us to continue to plough on secondary 

 land, if we have no guarantee the probability is that 

 it will not be ploughed. Wo do not want the guaran- 

 tee, but we say if you want that done we shall pro- 

 bably need the guarantee. 



14.523. (Mr. Edwards) : By " the community asking 

 you " have you in your mind the continuation of 

 compulsory powers to compel you to plough the land. 

 What have you in your mind ? No, I do nob say we 

 are asking you to put compulsion upon us to do a 

 certain thing. We say if you wish to keep up the 

 arable acreage there is certain land that will not be 

 kept up properly if prices fall back and the only way 

 to keep that land under the plough is perhaps to give 

 us some form of guarantee. There are other factors 

 that oome in as well as the guarantee: the guarantee 

 alone might not do it. (Mr. Davidson) : If it is 

 in the national interests that the inferior arable land 

 should be cropped and also in order that the country 

 districts may not be depopulated, guaranteed prices 

 are necessary. 



14,5^4. How do you expect the community to 

 express its wish? (Mr. McXicol) i: It has been stated 

 by -Mr. Lloyd George, representing the Government, 

 that he would like to see the land kept under tho 

 plough. 



Chairman: I think the witness from the Scottish 

 Farmer's Union yesterday dealt with this point very 

 fully indeed. I do not know whether you want to 

 go over it a^ain with these gentlemen. 



Mr. Edvxtrdt: When we have an opportunity of 

 putting the question to four such' good Scottish 

 farmers as we have now before us, it is well to get it 

 from them also. 



I'liniriiiiin : I thought their view-, wen- cxpiv.s-.Ml 

 by their Chairman yesterday, but I do not stop tlu> 

 question if you think it well to go over it again. 



Mr. Ikilhis: I think Mr. Gardner at various times 

 said ho was only expressing his individual opinion. 



14. 525. Mr. Kilintrda: Mr. McLaren, you said tlic 

 poorest land would go out of cultivation unless some 

 price were guaranteed. Do you recognise tho fact 

 that if a guarantee is given sufficiently high to keep 

 the poorest land in cultivation that the effect will 

 be that other farmers farming good land will make 

 very big profits? (Mr. MrjAiren) Yes, they will 

 make considerable profits I do not say very bi<; 

 profits. It depends upon the climate to a certain 

 extent, but they will make a profit. 



1 4.526. I have a paper here drawn up by an 

 Eagliah gentleman, who has been before us more than 

 once, and he says that 50 per cent, of the wheat 

 area in England yields bolow 3^ quarters per acre. 

 Necessarily, therefore, if this Commission or any otlier 

 Commission recommends that the guaranteed price is 

 to be of such a nature as to retain that land in 

 cultivation the other 50 per cent., which yields up to 

 6 and 7 quarters an aero, will inevitably get enor- 

 mous profits? You must remember, Sir, that the 

 land I am talking about is 1 an acre land, whereas 

 the land some of the other gentlemen are farming 

 may be C I or L'5 an aero land. 



14.527. If that is tho case you mean the thing 

 should be equalised by the rent? It will to a certain 

 extent, will it not? 



14.528. Therefore, tho value of the guarantee which 

 will keep your poor land in cultivation will ultimately 

 benefit the owner of the land, and not the tenant 

 who is operating it? I think they will lx>th benefit. 



14.529. In the long run it will go to the owner 

 of the soil? Only if rents go up. 



11.530. Rents are going up in Scotland at tho 

 present time, arc they not, as they are doing in 

 Wales? Yea, in tho meantime I admit they arc 

 goinp; up. 



14.531. You have in S'cotlan'd a system of leases, I 

 understand:-' ( 'Mr. M< \ '/. -nl] : Yes. 



H.532. Still you feel that tl do not give 



you the security which is necessary for you to launch 

 out according to the Scotch fashion and develop your 

 farms? No, in the meantime we do not feel secure 



20:)70 



in launching into a great deal of capital expenditure 

 upon the land. 



14.533. What would you say to a system of yearly 

 tenancies? That would be even worse. 



14.534. You are, therefore, not surprised to learn 

 that the farms in England, and Wales where I come 

 from, where the system is a- system of yearly 

 tenancies is much inferior to that of Scotland, where 

 the system is a system of leases? I do not know 

 whether that altogether accounts for it. 



14.535. You are not surprised to hear that? No. 



14.536. Do you keep sheep in Scotland? Yes. 



14.537. Are you losing money on your sheep? (Mr. 

 McLaren) : No, I do not adinit we are losing money 

 on the sheep. 



, 14,538. Do you keep the sheep in Scotland to tread 

 the land and manure the lajid? The feeding men do. 



14.539. Do they lose money on that? (Mr. 

 McNicol) : No, sometimes we may, but not every time. 



14.540. Would you be surprised to hear that there 

 are farmers in existence in England who tell us that 

 year by year they lose about 1 per head on tho 

 sheep they keep for treading the land? I beg your 

 pardon? 



14.541. There are farmers in this country who tell 

 us that year by year they are losing about 1 per 

 head on the sheep they i.so for treading the land? 

 Every year? 



14.542. Yes, every year? (Mr. Stevxirt) : They must 

 be fools to do it. (Mr. McNicol) : They must have 

 a lot of money to start with. (Mr. Davidson) : Last 

 year owing to the excessive price of turnips and 

 feeding stuffs it may have been the case, but not 

 every year. 



14.543. Is the practice of fallowing the land 

 common in Scotland? (Mr. McNicol): In the carse 

 districts only. 



14.544. What do you mean by the carse districts? 

 The heavy clay land and riverside land. 



14.545. Have you any such thing as three and 

 four and five horse land in Scotland? Three horse 

 land ; we have no five horse land as far as I know. 

 If there is any five horse land it is not wrought as 

 arable land. 



14.546. What is tho tendency at the present moment 

 with regard to putting land down to grass in Scot- 

 land? (Mr. Stewart): I think the agricultural 

 returns ,-liow that land is returning to grass this year? 



(Mr. linvidton) : I should not think that much land 

 will be laid away to gra.ss at present because of the 

 existing price of grain. 



14.547. What is the correct answer what is the 

 tendency now in Scotland? (Mr. McNicol) : The 

 tendency is that there is some land going back to 

 grMl. 



14.548. In spite of the fact that you have a much 

 higher guaranteed price than you are asking for. 

 You only ask for a mere cost of production price? 

 Yes. 



14.549. At the present moment tho prices guar- 

 anteed to you by the Government are much higher 

 than that? Yes. 



14.550. Still you say the tendency is for the land in 

 Scotland to revert to grass? Some of it. 



14.551. How do you explain that? Because it is 

 inferio.- land and probably oven at the present prices 

 that land is not paying well or even not paying at 

 all. It is principally land that was broken up during 

 the war to increase production. (Mr. Davidson) : 

 Pre-war, when the wages bill was low, it did not 

 pay to crop that laud, but now that the wages bill 

 is so much higher it probably pays worse for the 

 reason that one year in five you do not succeed in 

 getting a crop at all and tho higher cost makes the 

 loss heavier. 



14.552. I should like to be quite clear what is in 

 your mind as farmers with reference to whether 

 prices are likely to remain as they are or to fall. 

 Do you expect to find soon a big slump in the prices 

 of farm produce? (.!/>. MrNicol) : I would not like 

 to prophecy. (Mr. Stewart) : We are told by high 

 authorities that the cost of food is to become lower 

 very shortly. (Mr. AIcNicol) : I think that depends 

 on a great many outside subjects which we are hardly 

 qualified to deal with. It is really a world element 

 that comes in. (Mr. Davidson) : Farmers have a 



