MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



43 



15 October, 1919.] MESSRS. ALLISON, JNR., McNicoL, STEWART, DAVIDSON, MCLAREN. {Continued. 



14.656. Do you realise that that means a large 

 number of officials coming round and inspecting your 

 laud and keeping you up to the scratch? I do not 

 know that it altogether means that. 



14.657. How would the country be safeguarded? 

 You say a large number of officials. The land would 

 only require to be inspected periodically; it would 

 not take a very large number, I think. 



14.658. To cover the whole of Scotland ? No. 



14.659. Still you would have these officials? Yes, 

 you would have officials. 



14.660. You know that farmers have no love for 

 these sort of officials? Yes, I know that quite well. 



14.661. At nearly all the meetings they are having 

 farmers are crying out against control as they are 

 asking for the controls to be taken off, and to get 

 rid of Government interference? We want as little 

 of that as possible. 



14.662. You do not want anybody to teach you your 

 business? No; I do not think we would let them. 



14.663. Do you not think that is likely to happen if 

 these officials do their duty? We are asking for a 

 modified form of guarantee only. 



14.664. And you only want a modified form of con- 

 trol ? Exactly. 



14.665. You are asking for this modified guarantee 

 to prevent a disaster happening in the event of a 

 big slump that is the idea of it? We are not asking 

 for the guarantee. 



14.666. You do not want guarantees ? We have said 

 already that we are not wanting any guarantees at 

 all if we get fair play otherwise. 



14.667. I thought, in answer to Mr. Edwards, that 

 you said you wanted guarantees and security of 

 tenure? Yes, if agriculture is to be encouraged and 

 the land kept under cultivation. It we do not have 

 some form of security or guarantee then the pro- 

 bability is if prices fall the land will go out of culti- 

 vation, because we will alter our system of farming. 

 That is what I say. What I take it to mean is this : 

 if the country wants the goods we will deliver the 

 goods provided they give us an insurance fund against 

 the great slump that took place in former years. 



14.668. Are the farmers of Scotland so selfish that 

 they only want that for their own industry. If 

 another industry comes along and says exactly the 

 same thing as you have said : " If the country wants 

 the goods if they want ships on the C'lyde," says 

 you must give us a guarantee "? I do not think 

 the conditions are similar at all. 



14.669. You do not think the other chaps have as 

 good a case for a guarantee as you have? No, I do 

 not mean that. 



14.670. Take the fishing industry. They are de- 

 finitely asking at the present moment for some kind 

 of subsidy such as you are suggesting. Would the 

 farmers oppose that ? I really do not know. 



14.671. What I want to get at is this: I want the 

 farmers to see where the logical conclusion of this 

 argument comes to. You start off by wanting sub- 

 sidies for your industry in the interests of the 

 country, of course, and not for your profits at all. 

 But then along conies somebody else the men in the 

 fishing industry or it may be the shipbuilders who 

 think it is absolutely necessary for the security of 

 Britain and the British Empire that we should have a 

 largo amount of shipping, and they say: "We will 

 deliver the goods if you subsidise us or guarantee the 

 pric..." Do the farmers realise that if we give it to 

 the farmers we will have to give it all round. Are 

 yon prepared for that? I do not see that it follows. 



14.672. Why does it not follow. Are the fishers who 

 want to develop fishing not justified in asking for a 

 .subsidy if you are justified in asking for a subsidy? 

 W. a iv not a.sking for a subsidy, we are asking for 

 a guarantee of the cost of production only. 



I l.ii'.'i. What, you want is if the price goes down 

 that the (Joveiiinient will conic along and make up 

 the |irico? Yes. 



14.(i~t. That is a subsidy, is it not? Yes, it is a 

 modified subsidy. 



1 U175. You can modify it in any way you like, but 

 it is not modified if you get the cash in your pocket. 

 If you arc not going to get it you do not want it, and 



it is only a waste of time talking about it? Yes, but 

 we have a way out. If we do not have the guarantee 

 and prices go down, and we alter our method of farm- 

 ing, we shall still make as much, but you will not 

 have the security for the nation. 



14.676. That is a matter of opinion. Which of 

 these two would you rather have? Which two? 



14.677. Would you rather be left alone to farm in 

 your own way and carry on the form of cultivation 

 you think best or say, " We will adopt the other 

 system provided you give us guarantees ' ; ? If we get 

 fair play in the markets of the world. 



14.678. What do you mean by fair play in the 

 markets of the world. It is the other fellow who 

 always complains that he does not get fair play from 

 us in the markets of the world? You know there is 

 a great deal of dumping and there is a proposal to 

 tax manufactured goods coming in here and leave food 

 stuffs free. We do not consider that fair play. 



14.679. I quite agree with you. For instance, you 

 want to be able to buy all your feeding stuffs as 

 cheaply as possible, do you not? Yes. 



14.680. You do not want any tax on them so that 

 they will be dearer to you when you go to buy them 

 in the market. That is what you object to, is it 

 not? Quite so. 



14.681. You want the things you have to buy with 

 which to carry on your business to be as cheap as 

 possible, do you not? Certainly we want them as 

 cheap as we can get them. 



14.682. You do not want any artificial handicaps by 

 way of a tariff put upon, them? No. 



14.683. That is wh:it you mean by fair play? To 

 a certain extent, yes. Then, again, another part of 

 fair play is this. If farmers farming virgin land 

 abroad paying practically no rent for it and working 

 long hours and all the rest of it are going to bring 

 in their stuff here and dump it and reduce our 

 market we ask for a guarantee. I am going on the 

 assumption that we are asked by the country to 

 keep up the cultivation. If the country does not 

 care a rap about the cultivation we say, " Leave us 

 alonu and we will go ahead as we did before and 

 take our business risks." 



14,684. Supposing the country says, " No 

 guarantees, get on with your job, do the best you 

 can," do you mean to tell me that all the land in the 

 country is immediately going to be laid down to grass? 

 No, I do not mean that. I meaii that we will go 

 on and conduct our own business as we did before, 

 taking our own risks. 



14.685. As Scotchmen, do you think that is far 

 better than depending on charitable doles from the 

 public to enable you to carry on you job? We are 

 not asking for charitable doles at all. All we say 

 is: " If you want the stuff and you do not give us a 

 guarantee and conditions alter and prices go on the 

 downward grade you probably will not get the stuff." 

 It will be modified; we will act according to circum- 

 stances ? 



14.686. Do not the circumstances point to the pro- 

 bability that for many years to come there is 

 nothing to fear about the talk of virgin land abroad 

 coming into cultivation. America, us I suppose you 

 know, which country used to export a lot of wheat to 

 England, now really needs all it can grow for its own 

 consumption and probably it will even have to start 

 importing wheat and become an importing country 

 rather than an exporting country? I believe I have 

 heard that statement. 



14.687. At the present time there is not any doubt 

 about the fact that there is a real world shortage of 

 food stuffs? Yes, we quite understand that. 



14.688. So that with an open market and a fair 

 field you stand not to lose money, but to make as much 

 money as you made during the war and perhaps 

 more? That may be so for a time. 



14.689. For some years? I do not deny it. 



14.690. Mr. Aahby. Does the cost of labour in 

 your summaries, Mr. Allison, include horse labour 

 and manual labour? (Mr. Allison): Yes. 



14.691. Does the depreciation of the horses como 

 under labour or under horses? It comes under labour. 



14.692. That is to say the labour there includes the 

 total of horse labour and of manual labour? Yes. 



14.693. How did the farmers who supplied these 

 estimates estimate the cost of horse labour? I cannot 



