68 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 



21 Oefefor, 1919.] 



MR. A. H. Pens. 



[Coiiliiinfil 



15.440. You are not worried about a guaranteed 

 price being fixed for future yearn? No, but I am 

 worried in this respect, that in my own mind if you 

 want to know what I think I l>elieve the thing would 

 never b kept off, because the moment cheap wheat 

 .aim- in the Government would not stand it, but, as 

 I have already Raid, I have not consider* d the ques- 

 tion vrry much or taken as much interest in it, 

 because I do not believe in it. I do not believe tlu> 

 (Jovernment would keep to a guaranteed pn 

 cheap food comes along in the future. The political 

 cry of "Cheap food for the people" will prevent 

 that. 



16.441. Mr. .1. M. Ihiiili -i .i.in: If 'no guarantee is 

 given at all such as there is in the Statute at present 

 will it alter your system of farming or upset you very 

 much?-! w'ould wait until something happened, if 

 that is what you mean. 



15.442. You would go on- YOU must go on plough- 

 ing your land and so on? f would go on until the, 

 market showed signs of starting to drop. 



I"). 443. As a matter of fact, are not farmers round 

 you ploughing away just as they did before without 

 apparently troubling anything about the future at 

 all 'That is so. 



15,444. Mr. Thomas Henderson : You say in your 

 l>n'rit that the foulness of the lnn;l was pretty -much 

 the KM me in 1914 a* it is now? Yes. 



1 "i,445. It has not got any dirtier since 1914?- Not 

 appreciably. 



15,446. How have you been able to keep it up: 

 Being in a pit district I was fairly lucky in getting 

 women labour. That is the worst of my case, it is 

 nut typical at all. I am farming under special cii- 

 < uiuslaiices surrounded by pits. That is one of the 

 few advantages I get. 



1. "i.447. Does that also explain the fact that your 

 state of repairs and equipment is quite as good now 

 as it was in 1914 ? No. because I have kept them up. 



15.448. Mr. J.n n ijfonl : You have come here as you 

 have stated to give us your individual experience 

 and accounts?- That is so. 



15.449. You thought because you had rather a large 

 profit last year it was only fair in the farming interest 

 that you should come and put those facts plainly 

 before the Commission? I did. 



15,450-1. You did not think when you were asked 

 to come here that you were going to be questioned 

 upon the future policy with regard to agriculture? 

 1 did not. I do not consider I am a big enough 

 man to answer important questions of that kind. 



15,452. In your opinion this Commission is sitting 

 with a view to taking evidence and then suggesting 

 a policy? Yes, that is so. 



15.452. Did I understand you to say that 1918 was 

 *4ie best year you have had that you made more 

 profits that year than you did in any preceding year 

 since you have been farming? Yes, 1918 was easily 

 my best year- far the best. 



15.453. But you did make profits in the years 

 immediately preceding last year? The year before 

 that I made 355 profit. 



15.454. As against 1,256 in 1918? Yes. 



15.455. Can you say what you made in the year 

 1916? I have shown that in paragraph 8 of my 

 prte.it. 



15.456. Can you tell us anything as to your pre-war 

 profit*. What was your profit in 1913? The average 

 for the three years previous to 1917-18 was 530 

 per annum-- those are war years. 



1. "i.4- r 7. What were your profits before the war com- 

 menced :- Very often I hardly made a living. We 

 did not make a living because some years we lived 

 on our capital when the family was large. 



15.458. In any case, the profits were relatively 

 smnller pro-war? Very much smaller. 



15.450. Without giving its your opinion as to policy. 

 '] you think that the profit* of 1918 are going to be 

 maintained? I do not think so. 



15.460. Are you paying higher wages now than vou 

 were in 191 8 "-Ye*. 



15.461. And the hours are shorter now than they 

 were in 1918? Yes. 



15.462. You know there is a movement on foot 

 to make the hours shorter still P I have heard so 

 lately. 



15.463. Do you regard the shortening of the hours 

 as a serious matter to the industry? Do you want 

 me to go into details? 



15.464. Yea, if you have any details? What I mean 

 is this: If you stop overtime on a farm it is a MT\ 

 -erious thing if you take away a man's right to 

 please himself whether he works overtime or not. when 

 you ask him especially, if he is a decent fellow who 

 would be willing to work overtime at the busy times 

 of the year to get your crops in, but he has to say. 

 " No, I cannot because I am not allowed to work 

 ,. vi time " like they do in the case of bricklayer, 

 Hiid those sorts of trades. That is a very serious 

 thing for tan. 



15.465. Do vou find any difficulty in getting the 

 men to work overtime now? None whatever. 



15.466. That is to say during harvest and hay- 

 making, but they will not work overtime all the year 

 round? No, we never ask them to work overtime 

 except during the crucial times, at harvest and so 

 on. 



15.467. You do not want that privilege taken 

 nway in any case? No. 



15.468. You want a free right on the part of the 

 men and of yourself to bargain with regard to over- 

 time? Yes, and for this reason, not only is it 

 against my interest, but it is against the man's 

 interest. If he is an industrious man he likes to 

 work overtime and likes to make money just as we 

 all of us do. 



15.469. Do you think the agricultural labourer if 

 lie were asked his opinion by referendum would iw 

 a party to having that privilege taken away frnm 

 him? I do not think so. 



15.470. Mr. Nirltolls: Have you discovered any- 

 thing which uives you the impression that the right 

 of the man to work is to be taken away from him? 

 Yes, I heard that the Labour Movement had put 

 something forward to get Parliament to include 

 agriculture in the Bill. 



15.471. It is the yery opposite. It fixes a certain 

 number of hours as a working week and then it says 

 that all hours worked beyond that number are to 

 be paid for at overtime rates. Surely thai" is so, 

 is it not? I did not understand it to be so. 



16.472. I have not heard of anybody who wants 1 < 

 take away the right of an employer and a workman 

 to make an arrangement with regard to working 

 overtime. What really has happened is that they 

 want to fix a standard working week for all workers, 

 including agricultural workers. That may be a 

 questionable thing on the part of many people, but 

 that is the aim, and that any time worked beyond 

 those standard hours in the week shall be paid for 

 at overtime rates? It always is paid for in my 

 district. 



15.473. You do not object to that? I do not. 



15.474. It is as well that that should be made 

 clear? All the fair-minded farmers that I know 

 think that the men ought to be paid for every 

 minute they work now of real overtime you know 

 what I mean by real overtime. 



15.475. Y'ou do not find any difficulty with the 

 men. The real type of man is willing to work over- 

 time when it is necessary? Yes. 



15.476. 1 have no experience about the building 

 and other trades. You suggested something about 

 bricklayers refusing to work beyond a certain num- 

 ber of hours. That I do not know anything about. 

 You have no real knowledge have you that the 

 1'nions prevent a man from working overtime? The 

 bricklayer is only allowed to lay so many bricks per 

 day where I come from. 



15.477. Per day or eo many hours? That is so. 

 15,47--. W-. hut is there any restrii tion against 



them working beyond those hours so long as they 

 are paid overtime rates because if there is I have 

 not heard of it? I have always understood that was 

 the case. 



15,479. I can assure you there is nothing, so far as 

 tho Wages Board are concerned, that goes in that 

 direction. Kvery arrangement they have made is 

 that a week shall consist of so many working hours, 



