MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



71 



UK (.Vtober, 1919.] 



MR. THOMAS WILLIAMS. 



[Continued. 



15.513. Are the Welsh landowners large land- 

 owners or small landowners? In comparison the 

 majority are small landowners, but there are here 

 and there certain large landowners. 



15.514. I suppose you feel the great danger is of 

 farmers having to lock up their available trading 

 capital in purchasing land, and the productive user 

 of the land will be let down in consequence? There 

 is that tendency, especially with the very high prices 

 paid now, that the farmer will not have sufficient 

 capital to buy the farm and also to stock it. 



15.515. So nationally this continual buying up of 

 farms by farmers will be a bad thing? I might say 

 that in my view it is the best means of security of 

 tanure and the only satisfactory one possible, but 

 the difficulty is with the money. That I think could 

 be got over by Land Banks, or the Government sup- 

 plying the farmer with the money at a moderate 

 rate of interest. The difficulty is in getting suffi- 

 cient money to purchase the farm, and also do the 

 stocking. But that is the only proper means, the 

 security of tenure, for the farmer to buy his own 

 farm. 



16.516. The sleeping accommodation, as you men- 

 tion here, in Wales, is very bad, generally speaking, 

 for labourers, is it not? It is put down here, but I 

 would like to qualify that. I would not say it is 

 generally the case that waggoners have to sleep in 

 outbuildings; but it is often the case of a small 

 farmer in Wales, with a large family, that the accom- 

 modation is very inadequate to accommodate these 

 labourers in addition. But they often do live 

 amongst the family themselves because of lack of 

 housing accommodation. 



1C.517. Do you think that farming could be im- 

 proved in Wales where there is a very heavy rain- 

 fall, by following out the system of continuous 

 cropping to a large extent? Of course the very 

 heavy rainfall in Wales is a serious matter; and we 

 had an instance of it last year, when the greater 

 part of our crops was completely destroyed. But I 

 cannot say that continuous cropping has been a 

 success. It has been tried to some small extent, but 

 I should not say it has been a very great success. 

 In my view we do not get enough sunshine to make 

 it a success with continuous green crops. 



15.518. What do you really mean, in Wales, when 

 you use the term "security of tenure"? Have you 

 any Bill sketched out, or any detailed plan of 

 security of tenure, because it is a very loose phrase, 

 is it not? Yes, I quite agree. It is altogether a 

 difficult problem; but, as I said before, I have come 

 to the conclusion that there is no security that will 

 be satisfactory to both owner and tenant, and the 

 only conclusion I have come to is that we must have 

 some system of purchasing the farms. 



15.519. But surely tenant farmers mean something 

 by security of tenure otherwise than by purchasing 

 farms, do they not? Of course, many theories have 

 liccn put forward, but so far nothing has been satis- 

 factory. 



li',,520. Not in your opinion? No. 



l">.">21. Do you suffer much from game? In years 

 gone by there has been a great deal of damage done 

 by garni; ; lint since the Cultivation Orders during 

 the war, game have not been preserved to anything 

 like tin; extent they were formerly. I should say, 

 on the whole, the damage from game is not now 

 very great. 



15.522. There is still danger that it may be great? 

 There is, in certain districts where Cultivation 

 Orders have been carried out on land adjoining 



'i. There is, of course, at present ^naterial 

 damage done; but nothing in comparison with what 

 was the case years ago. 



15.523. Mostly from rabbits? No, I should not 

 say the greater damage is from rabbits. The greater 

 damage in the corn, in my view, is from pheasants. 

 That is where the farmer has done his duty and 

 kept the rabbits down; but there is also damage 

 from rahbiti. 



1C.624. What is your experience of the working 

 of the compulsory part of the Corn Production Act, 

 Part IV, at the present time in Wales? Is it being 



at all effective? It has been until now; but I might 

 say the farmer in Wales has had such a dose of 

 cultivation, that I think he is absolutely sick to 

 death of it. To keep it up, or to maintain anything 

 like the present quantity of cultivated land, I am 

 afraid will be a great difficulty. There is a very 

 strong feeling at the present time amongst the 

 farmers that officials should be reduced as soon as 

 possible, and that the farmer might have his chance 

 to go his usual course. 



15.525. So there is a tendency to ease down the 

 compulsory part of the Act? There is a distinct 

 tendency. It is being done, I believe, as fast as 

 possible; but I can say there has been a certain 

 amount of unsuitable land ploughed up, which pro- 

 bablj would be better laid down. But the present 

 labour difficulty, the shortening of hours, is the 

 main factor that causes uneasiness in the mind of 

 the farmer at the present time. That induces him 

 to lay the ground down as soon as possible, and I 

 do not think any guaranteed price for corn will 

 prevent that course to a great extent. 



15.526. You do not think the guaranteed price 

 will be of much help to Welsh farmers? I think it 

 is a means of satisfaction; but, the climate being 

 so bad, and with the difficulty of working with the 

 labour shortage, and a lot of the land being unsuit- 

 able for working by mechanical power, and all those 

 things put together, I think the Welsh farmer will 

 be better off, and I am quite satisfied nothing will 

 prevent him laying down certain more of the land 

 to grass. I do not say he will lay all down that 

 has been ploughed up under the Cultivation Orders, 

 but he will lay down considerable portions of trouble- 

 some and heavy land. 



15.527. Have you, in the Welsh Farmers' Union, 

 any fixed programme for a guaranteed price? Have 

 you any suggested figure? Do you mean for corn 

 or meat? 



1^,528. Corn? No. We have not gone into the 

 matter up to the present time; but I might say, as 

 far as wheat is concerned, tho present price, which 

 is something like 71s. a quarter, does not meet tho 

 case at all. Wo never have a very big yield of wheat 

 per acre. We grow tho straw, and get a fair quantity 

 of straw, but we do not get a high yield ; a.nd when 

 we compare that with the price of fattening cake, 

 which is about one-third higher, the tendency is to 

 use this wheat for stock, instead of the very high 

 priced cake. It is an absolutely impossible condition, 

 and the price we get for our wheat is absurd, and 

 amounts to no paying price per acre, considering 

 our very low yield. 



15.529. What do you consider a paying price per 

 acre? It is rather difficult to say olfhand, as con- 

 ditions vary in various parts; but I should say the 

 wheat, to be anything like a paying price and an 

 encouragement to grow, should be 5. 



15.530. Do you think tho taxpayers of this country 

 would submit to a proposition like that? I do not 

 suggest they should; but the fact remains that, if 

 we must have wheat grown on this class of land, 

 the only way to do it is for the farmer to get a 

 paying price for it. 



15.531. Are you a member of the Welsh Farmers' 

 Union? No, I am not a member of the Welsh 

 Farmers' Union. I am the Chairman of the Advisory 

 Council of the National Farmers' Union in Wales, 

 which is by far the strongest body of organised 

 agriculturists in Wales. There is, I might say, in 

 the Welsh speaking districts of Wales what is called 

 a Welsh Union that has sprung up ; but that organisa- 

 tion is comparatively small, and it does not represent 

 much of the best districts of Wales. 



15.532. Did your Society have a Conference at 

 Cardiff some little time ago? Yes, we had, at the 

 Royal Show in June. 



16,688. And you did not suggest guaranteed prices 

 at that Conference, did you? No. It was not for 

 the purpose of going into that matter at all. 



15.534. So that you have not outlined any pro- 

 gramme for guaranteed prices? No. 



15.535. Is it your personal opinion that it should 



be 5? Yes, I should say, taking Wales as a whole, 



if we have to encourage a fair area of wheat. 



E 4, 



