71' 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 



MK. THOMAS WILLIAMB. 



[Contiinifil. 



16,536. Mr. Tkomai Htnderivn : I wiis not quite 

 clear whom you represent exactly. Is it the Knglu>h 

 Farmers' I* 111011!' There m no such organisation as 

 that. 



15,637. The National Farmers' Union? Yen 



16,538. And you are Chairman of the Advisory 

 Committ.v for Wale*? Yes. 



15,639. How many members do you represent? I 

 do not leally know, hut we repn-Kcnt, I should say, 

 three-fourths of the farmers <t Wales quite that. 



15.540. And the other fourth is represented by the 

 native Welsh I'nion? Yet). I do not know the 

 figures, but I do not think they represent a fourth. 



15.541. And you are giving evidence officially on 

 behalf of the '.Notional Farmers' I'mon!-' -Yes, of 

 this representative body, the National Farmers' 

 t'nion of Kngland and Wales. 



15.542. \Yith regard to this point of sentiment 

 overriding reason, in paragraph 3 you refer to a 

 cottage which had been rented for years at 12 a 

 year, which had sold recently for 86 years' purchase. 

 May I ask you who bought the cottage ? I do not 

 know. 



15.543. You do not know for what purpose it was 

 bought? No, hut I can personally (i' V(> you similar 

 instances, if you like. I have not the 'particulars 

 in rt-gard to this item, but they can be procured. I 

 should say it is a common occurrence for very 

 excessive prices to be paid for certain small holdings, 

 largely on account of the great shortage of housing. 

 There might be retired farmers and others who are 

 most anxious for houses to live in ; end when some 

 of these small farms come into competition, the result 

 is that some people who have made a bit of money 

 will bid, and, of course, will give more than the 

 present tenant can afford to pay, largely because of 

 the scarcity of housing accommodation. 



15.544. Then in paragraph 2 you refer to farms 

 of a rent under 5(1 wiling at from 1500 to 2000. 

 Are those bought by farmers ? Yee. 



15,5I">. Hy tenants, as a rule? Yes, the tenant, 

 as a rule, is the highest bidder. I could give you 

 case in point that occurred the other day. Tin- 

 County Council, buying land for small holdings, 

 decided to bid for a certain farm, and the tenant 

 was most anxious to secure it. It had been valued 

 by the Government valuers; but after that it went 

 to 300 more than it was valued at by the Govern- 

 ment, ;iiid ili,' tenant secured it. That was a farm 

 rented at 220, which sold for 8,000. But I might 

 say that figures like these are fairly common. I 

 do not say it is the general rule, but they are fairly 

 common. 



15,546. And the usual buyer is the tenant farmer? 

 Yes, more often than not. " 



15,54". How does ho make up the purchase price? 

 Is it from his previous profits, or what? "Where does 

 he get the money to buy it? I do not suggest ho 

 get* the money at all ; and in most cases, I should 

 ay he has to borrow as much as he possibly can. 



15,648. On mortgage of the farm? Yes, certainly. 



15.549. Is that the common rule? He has to mort- 

 gage or borrow the money in some other way. Some- 

 times he gets the money through the banks or through 

 a friend ; but it is more often than not by a mort- 

 gage on the farm. 



15.550. Then you are giving evidence to the effect 

 that farmers of Wales are so anxious to get their 

 own farms, that they are willing to incur serious 

 financial risk to get "tin-in:- Yes, I say it is a risk, 

 and a very serious financial risk to get farms at 

 present prices. 



15.551. And yet, on your own showing, they are 

 evidently anxious to do it? They are anxious not 

 to go out of their homes, because in many cases they 

 have difficulty in getting any convenient place to 

 live in. if they once lose the farm. The County 

 Council is now in the market for the land, and n 

 tain number of farmers will be dispossessed. Those 

 farmers come into the market, and they are com- 

 petitor* sometimes against a sitting tenant. 



-'2. Then do other farmers compete for these- 

 holdings when they are put up for sale? Yea, some- 

 times 



I.1..T53. And run up the pn. , -..nietime*. 



15.554. IB it not open to another interpretation ; 

 that the farmers are so convinced the speculation is 

 a good one, that they are willing to pay high pri-os 

 for these farms? 1 do not think BO. 



15.555. Is that not a possible interpretation f M\ 

 own view is that tlu-y realise they are running a 

 grave risk, eap<x-ially in view of the tact that they 

 <|.i not know what might happen in the future. It 

 the farms depreciate anything like to their pre-war 

 value, it would mean absolute ruin to many of these 

 farmers. 



IS.OOi;. I presume that consideration would be 

 present in their minds, would it not - Yes. 



15,557. That is to say, taking that factor into 

 account, they are willing to give these very high 

 figures for the farms?- \\V11. they have to choose 

 one of two evils; they could go out altogether or take 

 the risk. 



!"i..V>8. I would suggest, even in Wales, the farmer 

 would choose the lessor of the tw.> <-\iU and stay? 

 It is rather difficult to say which it is. Some do 

 choose the other and go out. 



15.559. But the majority stay and buy? Yea, I 

 should say the majority d*o. 



15.560. With regard to your answer to Mr. Green 

 on the question of officials, I gather from what you 

 state, you are not very fond of officials in Wales? 

 1 might say, personally, I have had a good deal 

 to do with them, and I have found they work very 

 well, and the farmers accepted it with very good 

 grace during the stress of the war. But now it is 

 difficult to persuade the farmer of the great neces- 

 sity of carrying on this corn production with high 

 cultivation to the extent it has been done. The 

 farmer is certainly very dead against carrying on 

 the present system with all these officials and the 

 inspection of land. 



15.561. That is to say, the farmer wants to be left 

 alone, and do the best he can with his own holding? 

 ^ e-.. there is that feeling. 



1.5,562. That is to say, he wants to get back to a 

 state of comparative freedom ? Yes.' 



15.563. I suppose you would admit that if you 

 do get a guarantee, it will necessarily be accom- 

 panied by some form of supervision or control? 

 Yes. I do not see why it should not l>e accompanied 

 by some sort of control without all the present 

 (jtiantity of officials ; at least. I hope HO. 



15.564. If the Welsh farmers had to choose between 

 pcrfi-ct treislom. or at least a-s perfect as one can 

 get it in this world, and a guarantee accompanied by 

 supervision, which do you think thev would prefer? 

 It would largely depend on the extent of supervision 

 I should say it might be possible to have satisfactory 

 prices fixed, without all that amount of supervision 

 and inspection that has been going on. 



15.f65. Do you think that would sufficiently safe- 

 guard the public interests?. The public is to bo asked 

 to provide the guarantee. Do you not think the 

 public will have the right to have a very effective con- 

 trol and supervision over your industry? Yes. I 

 have said before I agree that some amount of control 

 will have to be accepted. 



15.566. It must be an effective control, I would 

 suggest? Yes, of course, it will he effective; but it 

 might be that, without the present number ot 

 officials. 



15.567. There is a large number of officials in 

 Wales? Yes, I think that is general. 



lOj.W?. What do you think they would prefer a 

 ici tain number of officials plus a certain amount of 

 control, plus a guarantee, or the return to freedom !- 



The reeling is certainly very strong for freedom. 



il9. I think you admitted, in answer to a cpies- 

 tion by Mr. Green, that the guarantee in Wales, at 

 "iny rate, would be chiefly effective as a sort of 

 satisfaction to the farmer. You say that your par- 

 ticular circumstance* in Wales do not lead you to 

 put your land under whc:ii \o. Having regard to 

 the -very wet climate' and the labour difficulty, and 

 the shortage of cottages, and all that, I do not think 

 the Welsh farmer will prow corn very extensively. 1 

 do not think it would be advisable. * He can better 

 devote his attention to the rearing of stock in the 

 national interest. 



