MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



28 October, 1919.J 



. THOMAS WILLIAMS. 



[Continued. 



15.570. So, of course, a guarantee could not touch 

 that, unless it were extended to meat? Yes; but I 

 presume it would be extended to meat, or I hope, if 

 there was a guarantee at all, it would be extended to 

 meat as well. 



15.571. That is to say, if the guarantee policy is 

 adopted, you want in the interests of Wales to have 

 a guarantee for meat? Yes, I should say so. 



15.572. Mr. Prosstr Jonrs: What acreage do you 

 farm:' Five hundred. 



15.573. How much of that would be under the plough? 

 l (in- hundred acres of corn and the usual amount of 



roots this year. Last year it was slightly more. 



15.574. What do you mean by the usual amount of 

 roots? About 20 acres of roots and green crop. 



15. 575. How many men do you employ? Nine. 

 Mine is usually grass of the feeding nature, and a 

 good deal of the land floods. But I have farmed near 

 you in Radnorshire, five small hill farms, for fifteen 

 years. 



15.576. What acreage did you have under the 

 plough prior to the war? Eighty, including roots. 



15.577. Do you admit that production has been in- 

 creased through the interference of control? Yes, 

 most distim tl\ . 



15.578. And you agree it is desirable to continue 

 that to have that upward tendency? It is rather 

 difficult to say it is desirable to continue the increase 

 in Wales that I am talking about; but the low-lying 

 ground is suitable, and that part of the land wnere 

 the fields are large, and they can be done with 

 mechanical power, and so done cheaper than on the 

 troublesome parts of Wales. But I do not say it is 

 advisable tc keep up the full amount of cultivation 

 there has been during the war in Wales, because of 

 the conditions I have previously stated. 



15.579. Corn can be produced cheaper on a large 

 farm than on a small farm; is that your view? Yes. 



15.580. Owing to the larger fields'? Yes. 



15.581. How far is machinery used in your district? 

 Just where I live it is rather extensively used now ; 

 but throughout Wales the fields are so small, and it 

 is so troublesome, that machinery cannot be used to 

 the best advantage as it can under more suitable 

 conditions. 



15.582. How do the farmers generally take the new 

 machinery. Do they favour or not the introduction 

 of machinery? Yes, I think there is an increasing 

 feeling now of favour towards the introduction of 

 machinery where possible. 



15.588. DOM that tend to reduce the cost of til- 

 liny;:' Ye-; where it can IK- used to advantage, I 

 take it it will tend to reduce the cost of tilling. 

 That, of course, 1ms been very expensive owing to the 

 high cost of fuel, the initial high cost, and the up- 

 keep, which T think have been found very expensive. 

 I have noticed that when the Government took over 

 the tractors from the Agricultural Executive Com- 

 mittees, they offered them to certain individuals in 

 the districts, machinists, to encourage them to do 

 work for the farmers on their own ; but they found 

 it necessary to offer them an additional 10 per cent. 

 on what they could reasonably expect to get from the 

 farmer, to encourage that being done. 



15.584. You told us you have nine men working 

 the farm; how do they take to machinery? I take 

 it they are the men responsible for working it? Yes. 

 I find some of the men are very adaptable to machi- 

 nery. 1 personally have not found any difficulty 

 under that head. 



15,5*5. Then taking the efficiency of your men 

 on the whole, how do you find them? Do they give 

 th" i-atne results as they did previous to 1914, say? 



\<>. I eannot quite say that they do; and since 

 the \var we have lost many of our best men, and 

 they are not replaced to the same extent. 



15.586. Then you told us that one element that 

 disturbed farmers very much was the question of the 

 hours and wages? Yes. 



15.58". Is it your desire as farmers to revert to 

 the old conditions) of employment long hours, low 

 wag"s, and so forth? Certainly not. We agree that 

 KO'| wages are necessary and should be paid to the 

 labourer. But when you come to the question of 

 hours where men outside are employed, of course 

 that i* n trouble : but talking of Wales, where they 



are usually lodged in the house, it is a very 

 serious matter. When these men work short 

 hours, it costs the same to keep them, and they are 

 really more expensive than the rate of wages paid 

 to the men living out. 



15.588. You told us there is a shortage of labour 

 in your district. Is it your experience that con- 

 ditions must be improved in order to secure addi- 

 tional labour? Hours have been reduced in all 

 industries, and the farm labourer looks for the better 

 conditions? I do not think I have said that there 

 was a shortage of labour in my district. 



15.589. I understood you to say that there was 

 a shortage of Labour owing to lack of accommo- 

 dation? I believe there is sufficient labour; but 

 unless the men are practical and good, they are con- 

 sidered especially some of these young men not 

 to be worth the money; and in consequence of that 

 they are not sought after, and the farmer will pre- 

 ferably go short of labour before employing these 

 inexperienced young men at the full rate. That, in 

 my opinion, is the main difficulty; and that is a 

 matter that will send the young men from the farms 

 in Wales, that is, the young inexperienced men. 

 Now, when they have a schooling up to a later age, 

 they do not gain the necessary experience by the 

 time they are 21. I personally have had experience 

 of that class of man very considerably, and also of 

 married men living out, and I am quite of the opinion 

 that the man with experience, on the whole, is worth 

 very much more than a young man who has not had 

 very much experience by the time he is 21. The 

 result will be that we shall lose a very great number 

 of these young men, and a greater number than 

 formerly, I believe, from the countryside. 



15.590. Do I gather from that that you are opposed 

 to further education for these young lads? No, cer- 

 tainly not. I thoroughly believe in education. 



15591. Will you tell us what other industries are 

 near to you in your district, where these young men 

 could take up other employment? Of course, they 

 go quite out of the district. They go to the industrial 

 l>:n t- of Wales, and also tr England. 



15.592. With regard to the condition of the land 

 in your district, has it improved since the war, or 

 has it deteriorated? It has deteriorated, and that, 

 in my view, is a very serious matter. The store of 

 fertility is being taken out of the land ; and of course 

 that is a loss in landlords' capital, and the tenant to 

 keep up that, will have to replace it. I should say 

 without a doubt it has deteriorated to a very con- 

 siderable extent. The \a.i\ 1 is more foul than it was 

 formerly, and very much less manure has been used. 



15.593. You give us an instance here of where a 

 man had bought his holding for over 1,000, which 

 amounted to 80 odd years' purchase. Is it not the 

 case that these people cripple themselves in finding 

 this money for holdings? Yes. 



15.594. Mr. Lennard : 1 think I understood you to 

 say, in answer to Mr. T. Henderson, that if guaran- 

 teed prices were continued for corn in normal times, 

 you consider there also should be a guaranteed price 

 for meht. Should I be right in concluding that you 

 think it would be unfair to the farming community 

 in general if guaranteed prices were fixed for corn 

 only, and nothing was done for meat? Yes, I should 

 say so. In years gone by, the foreign competition 

 kept our meat at such a low level, and that was in 

 our part of the country the farmers' sheet anchor; 

 and that was more the cause of the farmers' policy 

 and inability to meet the conditions than high rents. 



15.595. If the Government were to fix guaranteed 

 prices for corn only, we should soon have a demand 

 from farmers that guaranteed prices should also fce 

 fixed for meat, I understand ? There would be a 

 demand if it were required. Of course, if meat kept 

 up at a paying price without it, the farmer would 

 not want any of this control at all. But the only 

 difference is that the farmer will go on growing stock, 

 because he can do it without so much labour; but he 

 will not grow the corn without being assured of a 

 paying price for it, owing to the difficulty of labour 

 and the cost of labour. 



