ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 



88 Odofer, 1919.] 



MR. THOMAS WILLIAMS. 



[<':>,itinued. 



\\Vlsh farmers prefer being absolutely free; but I 



might say that, of course, the present times ai 



uncertain, thut it would be a satisfaction if lie cul- 

 tivated land with a sort of guarantee to be given lor 

 H lew vears until tilings appeared to be more sotil..l 

 But generally the WcNh farmer is dead against any 

 interference with his work. 



15,633. Would he want this guarantee if the Govern- 

 ment gave him to understand at once, that they 

 did not propose to interfere with whatever method 

 of conducting his business he might choose? I 

 r.ither think there would be some satisfaction for the 

 piesent in a guaranteed price; because it is thrust 

 on to the Welsh farmer that he will have to keep up 

 the acreage of cultivation, and as long as he feel* 

 in that position, I think ho will want some sort of 

 guarantee. 



15.654. A fixed guarantee, or a guarantee on a 

 gliding scale? A fixed guarantee. 



15.655. You think he has a strong sporting in- 

 ctinct, and he would like to take his chance? Yes. 



15,656.1. Mr. Smith : You mentioned in one of your 

 answers Uie very low yield of wheat from the Welsh 

 farms: what would be your average yield? I cannot 

 say; I have not the figures definitely. 



15.656. Viewing it .from the standpoint of the 

 average of the country, would you say it is low? 

 I should say so. 



15.657. Could you give us any opinion as to how 

 you could meet the position as between these low- 

 y folding soils and tie higher-yielding soils with 

 regard to the 5 a quarter? Of course, the present 

 system is payment on the acre. I do not say that 

 u very satisfactory. The only solution for the 

 matter in my opinion, is for the land that is not 

 adaptable to go to grass, and to concentrate on the 

 land that is more suitable. 



15.658. That means, in your opinion, it is ex- 

 ceedingly difficult by means of guarantees, to adjust 

 the position as between a lower and higher-yielding 

 oil? That is so. 



15.659. You say that farmers are taking a big risk 

 in the purchasing of their farms, and that the reason 

 they are doing it is because they have no desire to 

 leave the industry. Would that not lie what one 

 might term a sentimental reason? Yes, you might 

 call it a sentimental reason ; but sentiment is often 

 very strong where generations of farmers have occu- 

 pied the same place. 



15,660! Is it not exceeding dangerous for any sec- 

 tion of the community to base their future prospects 

 upon what, after all, is sentiment, however strong 

 it may be? Yes, I am sure it is dangerous and un- 

 certain. 



15.661. Do you really suggest that these farmers 

 are taking a very big risk because of a desire from 

 that point of view to keep on their farms, and that 

 there is not in their minds some confidence that the 

 future will be all right from a farming point of 

 view? It is rather difficult to say. We have often 

 found the best and most intelligent sons as they 

 grow up have gone away to some other industry, 

 and the farmer who is left lias nothing else before 

 him. There is nothing else he could go to that he 

 would be adaptable for after having spent years of 

 his life there; so if he changed at all, the only pros- 

 pect for him is to change from one farm to another. 



15.662. I suggest to you that if that is the only 

 thing he lias before him in regard to the future, 

 there is not much chance of his even keeping on the 

 fiirm unless the industry as such can be made suc- 



il. There is a practical side? Yea. 



15.663. And therefore it may be a very short- 

 sighted policy, if that in the whole basis upon which 

 they are rc-tniL" I might nay, of course he >s build- 

 ing hopea on the future of 'agriculture still being 

 kept up 



15.664. I suggest to you that that phase of it is 

 rather prominent in his mind, that he has confidence 

 in the future:--- Well, lie has hope. I do not know 

 to what extent we should describe it as eonfiil' 



but no douht he has hope of being able to make a 

 living. 



15.665. A farmer is a practical man, is he not? 

 He is supposed to be. 



15.666. Would you agree that in borrowing the 

 money to purchase farms he is taking even a greater 

 risk than il lit was using his own money? The fact 

 that he has to pay interest every year is a greater 

 difficulty than if 'he merely had an obligation to 

 himseli and not to an outsider? Certainly. 



16.667. Therefore the risk is very great"? Yes, if 

 he has to borrow money lie has a chance of becoming 

 a bankrupt, whereas if he has money of his own to 

 pay he has a prospect at least of going on. 



15.668. I understand you to say a number of these 

 farmers were adopting that method in the purchase 

 of their farms? Borrowing the money? 



15.669. Yes? That is so. 



15.670. Therefore, unless the future of the industry 

 is to some extent encouraging to thorn, their 

 position is very shaky indeed? Yes. 



15.671. Do you think men would be prepared to 

 run all that risk and place themselves under the 

 influence of an outsider, merely because of a senti- 

 mental desire to maintain their position in farming, 

 apart altogether from the future? I suggest they 

 have no choice in the matter. If they go out of 

 their farm they have nowhere to go to. They are 

 living in the present, and doing the best they can 

 under difficult circumstances. 



15.672. But if their farming does not succeed 

 they will have to go out in any event? Yes, some 

 would. 



15.673. And if they are selling now and going out 

 they would be going out on what might be termed 

 advantageous circumstances by virtue of the pi 



No, at the present time they would not. I might 

 say the farmer who breeds store stock in Wales, 

 especially in my district, is in the position of not 

 being able to sell his stock at any price at all 

 because of the scarcity of keep, so he would not be 

 in a fair position of going out now, as he, could not 

 make what the stock was worth pre-war, especially 

 if it is store cattle. 



15.674. That is rather an exception to the general 

 rule of the country, is it not? I do not know that 

 it is. The Welsh farmers especially breed yoiin:; 

 stock and sell them when they are young as certain 

 other farmers in England do. When they are sold 

 they are sold at a very bad price. I saw a lot of 

 rattle offered hv auction the other day and no one 

 would buy them they would not take them at any 

 price hecanse of the scarcity of feeding stuffs. These 

 Welsh farmers are bound to let their stock go or they 

 would die of starvation which they will do in many 

 cases undoubtedly. Then when the Spring comes they 

 will want to buy and probably they will have in buy 

 at a very high cost. That is the difficulty so there is 

 in inducement to the Welsh farmer to sell out at the 

 present time. 



15.675. Have you any difficulty in retaining labour - 

 The situation" with regard to labour is better HUH 

 since the war. A certain number of men have conn 

 back, but we find a good deal in Wales that there are 

 a number of young men who have not had sufficient 

 experience and the fanner is not anxious to employ 

 them at the full rate of wage. 



15,670. Has there been in Wales during normal 

 times any tendency for labour to drift from the farms 

 into other industries? Yes, I should say so. 



ir>.<i77. That is not a good thing for the farming 

 industry, is it? No. 



1-Y<>78. Having regard to that fac.t do you agree 

 ilia I the conditions of labour ought to be made an good 

 ;i> possible- as an inducement for labour to stay on the 

 farms? Quite, but the conditions of agriculture must 

 Ito good to meet the demands of labour. 



I."i.ft79. Taking the question by itself apart from 

 other questions it would bo to the advantage of the 

 industry to l>o able to retain good labour on the 

 farms ?- -Quite. 



15,680. I put that to you because of the question 

 ! K\ Mr. Nicholls in regard to facilitating cir- 

 fiimstancc* and supplying milk and farm produce to 

 the labourers. 1 wondered whether you had looked 

 Bt it from that point of view from the point of view 

 of facilitating the opportunities of good food getting 

 into the labourer's cotta;/' 1 whether that might help 



