MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



77 



28 October, 1919.] 



MR. THOMAS WILLIAMS. 



. [Continued. 



the industry to retain its labour. Good food and 

 fresh milk and things of that description would in 

 themselves be a direct inducement possibly for the 

 labourers to stay on the farms, would it not:' 

 ( 'ertainly ; I quite agree with that. 



15,681. Therefore, 1 suggest to you it might be to 

 the advantage of the farmers to facilitate circum- 

 stances by supplying milk and farm produce to the 

 labourer rather than to restrict supplies? I think 

 the farmer is prepared to do that provided the 

 demands made by labour are not too great in regard 

 to the actual cash. 



15.082. I was speaking of the purchase of milk 

 from the farm I' I do not think there is any objection 

 on the part of the farmer to supplying that. 



15.683. I thought you were looking at it more from 

 the point of view of administration and that you had 

 overlooked the other advantages? No, I only put 

 <hat point from the pecuniary point of view of the 

 farmer. 



15.684. That is not the only point of view? No, but 

 that is the point of view, of course, which I have in 

 my mind. 



15.685. Mr. Walker: How many years altogether 

 have you been farming? I have been farming all 

 my life. I have been doing the practical work for 

 the last quarter of a century. 



15,086. I understand in reply to one of the 

 questions put to you by a Commissioner that you 

 would be rather one of the exceptions here as be- 

 teen small farming and big farming? No, I began 

 with a smallholding myself. 



1.5.0*7. Yes, but you state- in your /in'ris that 70 

 PIT rent, of the farms in Wales are under 100 acres, 

 and that large farms are the exception. You would 

 be classed as ono of the other :> per cent.? Yr,. 

 quite, I have been for these last 10 years farming 

 a large (arm. 



|.">f>". You refer to financial matters. After 

 deducting reasonable interest tor his capital and so 

 on you would agree I take it that this really 

 is profit to the farmer from the working of the farm? 

 Yes. 



15,689. In addition to what you have already 

 allowed in referring to the wages of the labourers? 

 Yes. 



l"i,090. I was not quite clear as to your reply with 

 regard to sleeping accommodation for farm labourers, 

 and particularly to teamsmen living in what some of 

 us c-all " bothies," and other sleeping accommodation 

 over the stables. Have you many of those men on 

 your farm? No, my men live in cottages; I have 

 no men living in bothies. 



15,691. Are there many living in such places in 

 Wales according to your experience? No, that is 

 not my experience. I believe in some cases they do 

 live over stables, but it is very rarely. The men are 

 usually crowded in the house with the family in the 

 smaller fnrras. 



15,002. Might I ask how that statement comes to 

 be in your /IM'TM. It is very definite and clear here? 



That is so, Imt it is not my experience. I do not 

 know of it happening to any extent. I have known 

 of certain cases of labourers sleeping over the stables 

 especially where there are big houses and mansions. 

 I believe in some of those oases the grooms have been 

 living over the stables, but generally my own ex- 

 perience- and it is rather extensive over various 

 parts of Wales is that they live in the farmhouse. 



l">,')!i:t. I understood that this statement was put 

 in by you from your experience. This is your own 

 statement is it not? I think I have explained that. 

 I do not know whether you would like me to explain 

 it again. I did explain at the beginning that this 

 statement was prepared by our Secretary. I am 

 responsible for the whole thing, but I had not an 

 opportunity of revising this so as to bring it into 

 line with my actual experience in the matter. 



liimiin : Mr. Williams added the word " often " 

 before. 



Tin- Wit MIX: Yes. 



l.'liPS.v Mr. WnU,;-,: To get back to financial 

 matters, do you know if there is any balan c she-t in 

 existence so far as the farms in your part of Wales 

 are ".m. rued? It is very rare for balance 

 to be kept. There are certain cases, 



but it mostly applies to home farms, where 

 there is a clerical staff kept and often 

 where pedigree stock are kept. Some of those 

 farmers do issue a balance sheet and some small 

 farmers also produce some form of balance sheet, 

 but they are very few. Balance sheets are mostly 

 produced by the best type of man ; a man who would 

 make rather more than ordinary profit. So that the 

 very few cases in which balance sheets could be pro- 

 duced, I do not think would be of much value to the 

 Commission. 



15.694. So far as your knowledge goes the average 

 farmer in Wales does not keep accounts? No. 



15.695. But in the case of home farms and so on 

 accounts are kept? Yes. 



15.696. Do you think it would be possible to get for 

 the information of the Commission any figures or 

 balance sheets that would be helpful? They would 

 not give a fair indication of the position if you got 

 the few there are, because if they are provided by a 

 farmer they are provided by a man who is usually 

 of exceptional ability, and who probably has made 

 more profit than the ordinary farmer. The ordinary 

 farmer does not keep balance sheets at all. He works 

 long hours and when the evening comes I suppose 

 he does not fancy sitting down and using the pen. 



15.697. You state here that " Reluctance to leave 

 the old family homestead has been the cause of 

 thousands of farmers continuing to slave and toil 

 on unproductive farms." Do you mean that 

 thousands of fanners in Wales have been engaged on 

 unproductive farming? Yes. 



15.698. You do mean that? Yes, absolutely, but I 

 do not say those conditions apply to the same extent 

 at the present time. Of course things are better now 

 than they used to be, but when I first remember 

 conditions this statement is absolutely correct. 



15.699. To what period of years do you refer? I 

 can understand occasionally a loss being sustained, 

 but this refers not to an exceptional case but to 

 thousands of farmers over a period of years. It 

 states that it has caused thousands of farmers to 

 slave and toil on unproductive farms? It was a 

 general rule when I remember first of all. Of course 

 as I say, conditions have gradually improved and it 

 does not apply to-day to the same extent. 



15.700. I think you will agree that no business can 

 be run on losses? I do not mean that they wor 

 regularly sustaining a financial loss every year, but 

 they did in those times and under those conditions 

 struggle hard to get ends to meet to carry along. 



15.701. It would not be altogether correct to say 

 that farming continuously was unproductive? Of 

 course that means working hard on unproductive 

 land poor land that did not produce any great 

 wealth for the labour expended upon it, and we 

 have very much of that description of land. 



15.702. At any rate it produced a sufficient return 

 to enable these people to continue farming? Yes, 

 they struggled through those times. 



15.703. So in that sense the farms were not unpro- 

 ductive ?- -They were productive to a degree. The 

 word unproductive is used as expressing that they 

 did not produce abundance like the best land does. 



15.704. They did not produce sufficient? That is it. 

 1.5,705. They thought they ought to have had more, 



but they had a fair return nevertheless to enable 

 them to continue. In reply to Mr. Prosser Jones, 

 you stated that the land was in a very bad con- 

 dition and less fertile. If that statement is true 

 how much in your opinion will it take to restore that 

 land to a condition of fertility? That is a big 

 problem. I would not like to say. 



15.706. How much per acre would you suggest? I 

 do not think I am in a position to give an estimate per 

 acre not on the whole thing it varies so very con- 

 siderably. 



15.707. Y'ou have no idea? It is rather difficult to 

 give an estimate without considering the matter 

 carefully. It is difficult to answer a question like 

 that as to how much the whole thing would take per 

 acre. 



15.708. I should have thought that was a matter 

 which you would have gone into? I am afraid I 

 have not. 



